The Manipulation Expert: How to Spot Hidden Manipulators & Take Your Power Back

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:00:22):

People with very little training can detect with some kernel of truth the extent to which someone has psychopathic personality traits, just like five seconds.

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:31):

Five seconds?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:00:32):

Five seconds.

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:33):

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, she runs the Truth and Trust Lab at the University of British Columbia where she is a professor of forensic psychology. She's spent two decades studying manipulators, chronic liars, and dark personalities.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:00:47):

We've got psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sadism.

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:52):

What are you looking for?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:00:53):

They're incredibly manipulative and they often come across as very superficially charming. What you see is not necessarily what you get, right? Friendly looking demeanor on the outside masking that hostility and anger underneath.

 

Mel Robbins (00:01:06):

What she calls poisonous people aren't just the subjects of true crime investigation. They're in boardrooms. They're in public office. You might encounter them in your living room or at work. She'll also reveal a simple way to know if you're being manipulated. And if you have to communicate with somebody with a dark personality, the one rule you have to follow. Can a person with a dark personality change?

 

(00:01:35):

Hey, it's Mel. And before we jump into this extraordinary episode, my team was showing me this. 51% of you who watch the Mel Robbins podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. If that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not subscribed. Would you please do me a favor and hit the subscribe button? My goal is to get that number to 40%. I know you love supporting people who support you, and that's the best way to support me and the team here. Thank you in advance for hitting subscribe. I truly appreciate it. And trust me, you're going to be so happy you're here because this conversation is extraordinary. Please help me welcome Dr. Leanne ten Brinke to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:02:15):

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:17):

I am so excited that you flew in all the way from British Columbia because I am fascinated by your field of expertise and your research and our team devoured your bestselling book, Poisonous People.

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:02:49):

I think they learn how to reduce one of the biggest stressors in all of our lives because dark personalities, and I'm not talking about the super extreme clinical levels here necessarily, people who are just consistently callous and manipulative in our lives. And so everyone has someone in their lives that kind of might be popping into their head right now. So the manipulative sister-in-law, the boss at work who just needs all the attention and takes all the credit for your work, the callous mother-in-law. I get a lot of callous mother-in-laws in the comments. And it's just like these are people who cause us incredible amounts of stress. They divide us. They make us think that everyone is terrible when that's not the case. And they erode norms of polite conduct. They enshrine competition where cooperation would be so much better for everybody. Basically this one bad apple can really ruin the barrel.

 

(00:03:59):

And I think today I'm hoping to give people some tools to stop that rot.

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:06):

Oh my gosh. You know what was amazing about as you were talking is it probably happened for you as you were listening to Dr. Tinbrink, but I started to have situations and people pop into my mind. And one of the things that I wondered almost immediately, because as you talked about, these are the huge source of stress, you talked about callous, manipulative, they divide us, they make you think other people are terrible. They stir up controversy and competition. Is it always someone who's doing it overtly or would this apply to somebody who's maybe a little bit more victimy and softer in their approach as we... Because I want to start the conversation by you having people in your mind that cause you stress

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:05:01):

So

 

Mel Robbins (00:05:01):

That you can think specifically about how to apply this.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:05:05):

Yeah. So we define dark personalities as the overlap between specific dark personalities, which I'm sure we'll get into, this kind of nexus of callous, manipulative and hostile. And they certainly know what they're doing. So one of the questions I often get is like, do these people realize that they are this way? And the answer is yes, because we often measure these personality traits as a self-report. We ask them, is this characteristic of you? And they'll say, yeah, that sounds like me. I don't have any remorse. I am a born leader. I am okay manipulating other people to get my way and I don't feel bad about it. And so it's not like they don't realize that they are this way, but they don't necessarily care or they're not concerned about that impact on other people. That's that callous piece. So that combination of manipulativeness and callousness, I'm going to take advantage of you, I'm going to tell lies, and then I don't really worry about the consequences or how that makes you feel.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:20):

Got it. I'm so happy that you just defined callous because that was going to be my next question. So manipulative is my behavior does impact you, and callous means I don't really care that it does.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:06:31):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:32):

So what does a poisonous person look like in day-to-day life?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:06:36):

So a poisonous person has elevated levels of callousness, manipulativeness, and hostility toward other people as the core of dark personality traits.

 

(00:06:49):

And so if you're trying to think of in your life, what does that person look like? So they might be the boss who is consistently self-focused and takes advantage of all of the people that work underneath them, takes credit for their work, manipulates them perhaps into doing work that is not part of their job description and then is like, "Oh, this is all about me. " It could be the manipulative mom at the PTA. She's kind of pulling the strings, she's spreading rumors, and also that she can maintain this position of power. There's other versions. So you might have your friend's new boyfriend might seem really sickeningly sweet around her, but is actually really cruel to everyone else around him. And it seems like he might be love bombing her, creating this beautiful sense of a future for them, but you see the pattern everywhere else, which is that he is callous, he doesn't care about other people, he treats them poorly, he dominates people.

 

(00:08:06):

And so I think we see these personalities in all different versions or all different aspects of our life because a personality is a consistent way of thinking, feeling, and behaving. And by virtue of it being consistent, that means it's like you take your personality with you wherever you go. So sometimes you're at the grocery store, sometimes you're at work, sometimes you're with your family. And so we see these types of personalities in all different aspects of our life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:08:38):

I want to hover right there and make sure that I got that. So a personality is a consistent way of being, thinking, behaving, and feeling. And when we look at this in the context of poisonous people that are hostile, callous, manipulative, so you're kind of seeing this almost consistent trend of somebody who's hostile towards other people, callous, I don't care, manipulative, I'm going to do what I need to do to get what I need. Before we go even deeper, I cannot wait to dig into this.

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:22):

So personality psychologists talk about four different but overlapping traits as the dark tetrad of personality traits. So we've got -

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:31):

Does tetrad mean four?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:32):

It sure does.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:33):

Okay.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:34):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:34):

I'm learning a lot

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:35):

Today. We probably - You're using some

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:37):

Big words, Dr. Tedford. We

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:38):

Probably could have come up with a flashier. Well,

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:41):

I would've though it would've been a quad if it was four.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:43):

So

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:43):

Tetrad threw me off.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:45):

But anyway, that's what we've gone with. We've got psychopathy.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:50):

Psychopathy.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:09:51):

Okay. Narcissism, Mechiavellianism, and sadism.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:57):

So these are the four dark personality types, but as you've already said, as we're digging into each one so we can spot trends, there may be some overlap.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:10:10):

Yes, absolutely. So that question that I sometimes get, is this person a narcissist or a psychopath? That also suggests that they're completely separate things. And when we get into the definitions, you'll notice that there's a reasonable amount of overlap. So these traits tend to be moderately correlated. So if you're high in one, chances are you're also higher in others. And so it's not like an either or kind of thing. It's often like a yes and.

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:44):

Got you. After this episode, when you start to apply what we're learning, is it more useful not to label somebody a narcissist, but to go, that's a narcissistic personality style right there, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, or they have the makings of a sociopath? How do I talk to my best friend about this?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:11:02):

Yeah, I think it's certainly more accurate to say this individual seems like they have high levels of psychopathic personality traits or narcissistic personality traits. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but it recognizes the fact that this is a continuum and not kind of a black and white situation. Yes.

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:23):

Well, what I also like about that, even though it's a mouthful, is that I think for so much of my life anyway, and I'm sure as you're listening, you're going to feel the same way that I have given so much time and energy and experienced so much heartache at the hands of people that are hostile, callous and manipulative. And if I can take a step back and be able to be more of a ninja with this where I can go, oh, there's a narcissistic personality style,

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:11:57):

I

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:58):

Think I could recognize it sooner versus thinking you have to label somebody something versus spotting behavior and recognizing, oh, I got to step back from that. I got to recognize that and step back versus just saying, oh, that person is that kind of person, if that makes sense.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:12:15):

Yeah, totally. I think sometimes we get caught up in trying to figure out what is the label. Is she this or is she that? And that can kind of distract us from it doesn't have to be either or. It's just like, oh, I see there's callousness coming across in a lot of her behavior. And so now I'm like, okay, I'm cued into the callousness and I can try to interact with her in a different way that is going to reduce some of the impact of those personality traits.

 

Mel Robbins (00:12:43):

I find that to be really helpful because I feel more equipped than to spot it across a continuum versus waiting for behavior to build up to the point where I label somebody.

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:13:05):

So people with high levels of psychopathy, I've got a visual here.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:09):

You do? Okay,

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:13:09):

Good. Yeah. Okay. Check this out.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:10):

And I want to tell the person who's listening what it is so you don't feel like you're left out. It is a illustration of a person who is wearing a mask and behind the mask you can see that they're either angry, callous, and manipulative, but the mask that they're wearing has a big smiley kind of friendly face.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:13:30):

So psychopathy is actually a constellation of traits. It's not just one thing, but it's a set of traits that when you put them together creates psychopathy. I think this illustration is a good depiction of the mask of sanity. So one of the early researchers who studied psychopathy used this phrase to describe people with high levels of psychopathy. And it's because they're incredibly manipulative and they often come across as very superficially charming. And so what you see is not necessarily what you get. And so you can see this kind of friendly looking demeanor on the outside masking that hostility and anger underneath. So when I talk about psychopathy being a constellation of traits, that means that it's more than just one thing. It all comes together to form psychopathy. One way to chop up those behaviors or those constituent parts of psychopathy has a relatively long history with Dr. Bob Hare.

 

(00:14:38):

And he broadly mapped those pieces onto being callous, manipulative, impulsive, and antisocial. And so we can go through each of those if that

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:49):

Would be helpful. Because I'm like, oh. Okay. Well, so

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:14:51):

We hear callous,

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:52):

Manipulative, but

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:14:53):

You

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:53):

Also said antisocial. And what was the other one?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:14:58):

Impulsive.

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:59):

Impulsive. What's the impulsivity about?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:15:01):

The impulsivity is that they tend to respond to risk differently than other people. So they don't do a lot of thinking before they're acting. They tend to be pretty reckless and irresponsible. This might lead to them having what we call a parasitic lifestyle. They're mooching off of other people because they're not putting in the consistent work and planning of planning out a career, a family, all these things that go into life. So that's the impulsivity bit. And then antisocial is a proness to breaking the rules. And we've often studied psychopathy in the context of criminal justice settings. And so this could be legal rules that they're breaking, but it doesn't have to be that. It can be kind of social norms of kindness or politeness or fairness. It can also be workplace conduct. We've got certain rules in the workplace and they are blatantly disregarding those kinds of things.

 

(00:16:02):

So put all those things together, callous, manipulative, antisocial, impulsive, that's what is the combination that makes up psychopathy.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:11):

So when I hear the word psychopath,

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:16:14):

I

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:15):

Think about some sort of horror movie and some person running around killing people. Dr. Tenbring, can you give us an example of two? Since this personality trait runs on a continuum, what does a subtle version of a psychopath look like on one continuum and what might it look like on the other in terms of what you would encounter in your life?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:16:48):

So I mean very low would be someone who is kind and honest and follows the rules. And so that is actually most people.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:58):

Gotcha.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:16:59):

Very high, but perhaps not that kind of serial killer stereotype would be someone who tells a lot of lies, is very superficially charming. So they're very kind of fun to talk to in the moment. But if you think about the conversation you had later, you're like, none of that really makes sense. There's not a lot of substance to what they said if you examine it in some depth. They don't care. They're very remorseless, not experiencing a whole lot of guilt, breaking a whole lot of rules, and they're not really thinking too far ahead. So you can imagine this kind of personality almost anywhere. You can think about them in the workplace maybe. You might have a coworker who is very charismatic and everyone loves them at the start and they're always breaking the rules at work, but people see them and they're like, "That's a go - getter.

 

(00:18:05):

They're great. They are so smart." But you behind the scenes are like, "They don't do their work. They're breaking the rules all of the time." And they're really more like talk a big game than actually back it up with the time and the effort that you often need to be good at your job.

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:25):

That is incredibly helpful. Are there any early warning signs that you may be dealing with this kind of personality type, either in somebody that you're dating or that your brother's now dating or in a family member?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:18:39):

So I mean you spot one of these individuals again by looking for consistent patterns of these traits over time and across context. But there are some early warning signs. So if you think about if you act in these ways consistently over time, if I just happen to pop into your life for a minute, chances are I might see some of those patterns happening. It's not a perfect indicator and I might see new information over time, but there are some things that you can look for. So you can look for things like inappropriate emotional expressions, especially if someone has failed or if someone is hurting, they might look like they're actually enjoying that kind of thing. They might be expressing really hostile language but smiling at the same time so you get this kind of weird emotional presentation. You might also get that superficial charm where it feels really good in the moment, but if you examine what they actually said, there's not a whole lot of substance there.

 

(00:19:51):

They tend to be kind combative. So they might be pushing on your personal and professional boundaries. So even if you say, oh, I don't really talk about my family while I'm at work, they keep asking you about it. And in addition to that, they might be kind of impulsive in their answers. They're answering very quickly off the cuff they interrupt you all the time, but they get really angry if you interrupt them because they tend to like to be kind of dominating or domineering in conversations.

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:26):

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Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:21:30):

Yes, you did. Yeah. It's a big word. It's so many syllables. So Machiavellianism is a tendency to desire status and control. They really want to be in charge. They want to be empowered. They want maybe fame or money, whatever that is. And they have a really amoral approach to manipulation, meaning they're very willing to kiss someone's butt to get ahead, but they're also just as willing to spread rumors or tell lies to do that. And they're not particularly bothered. They're just like, "What do I need to get to the top of the food chain here?" And they're willing to do that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:08):

So somebody will step on your head or spread lies about you

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:22:12):

In order to get

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:12):

What they want.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:22:13):

Yeah, totally.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:14):

Then

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:22:15):

We have a

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:15):

Visual. Let's pull this sucker

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:22:16):

Up. Yes, we do have a visual. Okay. So this one, we got the chess pieces. So he's knocking you off the board.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:24):

Yes.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:22:24):

So you're in the way knocking you off the board. I think what this depicts is essentially this very strategic social style. So where we talked about psychopathy, having that kind of impulsive nature, this is different. This is like they're willing to plan things out. They're like, "Oh, Mel told me something kind of embarrassing. I'm going to put that in my back pocket and I'll bring that back up later whenever I need to turn the screws on her or something like that. "

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:55):

Is this the kind of person where I think we've all had that experience where you have this sense that somebody is turning it on and showing up when they need something and the second that they have gotten what they needed and used you for a particular purpose, you're gone.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:23:16):

Yeah, absolutely. I've spoke to some people who especially at work would see this kind of behavior, very strategic, pushing people out very subtly, managing up to the boss to try to get what they want. And these people tend to be very unsatisfied with their current position and are always gunning for something better. Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:23:40):

What does this look like in a family?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:23:43):

That's a great question. Usually we think about it at work, but in a family, again, it would be just that desire for power, control over other people, and probably very willing to create these divisions maybe between the cousins and the uncles and the whatever. Create divisions so that they come out on top. So yeah, it would be very similar. So we take our personalities with us wherever we go. So same kinds of strategies, but just playing out in a different context.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:19):

How do you spot a Machiavellian personality style at work? What are some of the behavior patterns that you should just pay attention to?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:24:30):

So what's really going to be helpful here is talking to other people.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:36):

About that person? Uh-huh.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:24:38):

Why? Okay. So my dear postdoc advisor, Dr. Dacker Keltner.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:45):

Yes, who's been on this podcast, we love him, the science of awe.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:24:49):

He's amazing. He did this study on gossip in a sorority. And essentially he asked everyone to fill out a measure of their Machiavellian traits. And then he also asked the girls, "Who do you talk about? Who gets talked about in private conversations? Who's well-liked? Who has status and who is respected?" And what he found is that the people who were gossiped about the most were people who were not well-liked, but they were well-known. And they weren't well-liked because they were highly Machiavellian and people perceived them as having status that they didn't really deserve. And so this is a situation in which it can be really helpful to maybe not take all rumors as face value, but pay attention because people are going to be talking about these individuals because they're so power hungry and because they are often stepping over other people to get to where they want to be.

 

(00:25:56):

Yeah,

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:56):

It doesn't seem fair that they have the job they have or they have the atention of the bos, or they have the title that they have because behind the scenes we all know they either manipulated their way there or they didn't earn it.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:26:09):

Well,

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:10):

That makes a lot of sense. You could see that playing out in a family where you have somebody that becomes the favorite and who is also always stirring up drama and always sucking the energy out of the room and it doesn't seem fair.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:26:25):

Right. Yeah. And it can be hard to see because they use manipulation and they use it quite strategically. It can be hard to see through at the start. I think that's what's hard about all of these personality traits is that they've got manipulation at the core of them. How

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:41):

Do you define manipulation?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:26:43):

Manipulation is just the willingness to use other people to your own ends. And so you're essentially pulling the strings on other people, changing their perspective perhaps by telling lies or half truths and shaping the situation.

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:00):

So it sounds like, because I was about to say, aren't we all using other people? But what you just said though is very important. You basically said you're willing to do whatever it takes to use people. I suppose on some level, we all hope that our friends reciprocate. We all hope that by being loving and kind, you're going to get it back, but that's not a form of manipulation because I'm not deceiving you in some way. Is that a fair way to think about it? I think so. Because I often struggle with the fact that, and this is probably a conversation for after we finish these four personality traits, but here's something I struggle with. I know people are wildly stressed out and overwhelmed and there's a lot going on with the state of the world and you never know what somebody is dealing with.

 

(00:27:48):

And I also recognize that you typically are not dealing with the actual person in front of you. You're dealing with their childhood issues and their emotional state and whether or not they've eaten anything and their tolerance for emotions and blabbity, blah, blah, blah, bitty, blah. And so I often try to give people the benefit of the doubt from a very safe distance.

 

(00:28:16):

But we are living in a moment in time where the behavior of people in public, the behavior of people online, the acting out in families, it just seems like toxic behavior has skyrocketed. And so I am just trying to discertain when you know

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:28:42):

That

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:42):

Somebody's truly being manipulative versus somebody is having a super bad week or they're just really at a point because of the stuff going on that you don't know about that they're emotionally flooded and they didn't intend to be this way, but they're walking all over. Do you know

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:29:03):

What I mean? Yeah, totally. So you could be consistently callous and manipulative, right? Yep. And therefore you probably have high levels of these dark traits. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us are never callous and manipulative. And there's often situations that are more likely to bring that behavior out. And you're right that the world right now seems like it is pushing on a lot of those situational factors that increase the likelihood that we'll behave in these kinds of ways. So I mean, we can probably all think of a time when we were not our best selves. I

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:44):

Feel bad about that though.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:29:45):

Yeah.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:46):

And I apologize for it. Exactly. And I then beat myself up over it. And what you're saying I'm starting to discertain Dr. ten Brinke is that a person with dark personality traits actually does not.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:29:59):

No. No. I mean, especially psychopathy, a lack of guilt and remorse is core to what that personality is.

 

Mel Robbins (00:30:08):

Is that the kind of person that also holds grudges?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:30:12):

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:30:14):

Obviously I'm thinking of somebody that I know. Dr. Chen Brink, what's the number one sign you're being manipulated?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:30:23):

So if this person wants something from you, maybe it's your time, your money, your influence. And if they seem to be a different person around you than everyone else, I think that's a big red flag that you're not seeing who they are. So early and romantic relationships, we'll hear about love bombing and this person seemed like the perfect partner. They were always texting me. They sent flowers. They want the same things that I want out of this relationship. All seems great, just the two of us, but look at how they treat the Uber driver, the barista, the hostess at the restaurant, especially when they don't think you're looking. And if you start to see that consistent kind of cruel treatment of people that are not you, I think that pattern is going to come for you eventually because the broader pattern is bad. It's a dark personality kind of pattern.

 

(00:31:31):

Eventually you're not going to be the exception anymore. You're going to become part of the rule. And I think seeing that kind of deviation when you are the deviation, that I think is a problem.

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:31:54):

Okay. Got another visual. Narcissism. All right. So here we've got someone looking into a broken mirror and you see the cracks in the facade here. And I think essentially what this is kind of pointing out is that what you see is not really what you get. Actually, this signifies to me a vulnerable type of narcissism where their ego is actually really easily shattered. Grandiose narcissism is kind of the opposite of that where their ego cannot be deflated even though they're getting kind of feedback that it should be. But at the core of both of those kinds of narcissism is entitlement and exploitation of other people in order to get that, what they think they deserve, which is more than most other people. And I think it's really helpful to try to identify those things early if you can, because those traits look really attractive early on and they are the exact same traits that lead to problems a little bit later.

 

(00:33:06):

So there's this one study that I love, Delroy Paulhouse at UBC. He did this study of groups of students and they were working together over the course of a term. And week one, they all got together in their new groups and they made these little first impressions of people. And it turns out that the people who were the most narcissistic in those groups were originally seen as really agreeable, really well-adjusted and very competent.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:37):

Really? That was the first impression?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:33:39):

Yeah. And it

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:41):

Agreeable?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:33:44):

And then week seven, he asked them to do those same ratings again. Those same people were seen as arrogant braggerts who were actually really hostile and who overestimated their abilities. So it's kind of like there's this sheen at the start and it quickly wears off when you start to realize the person they are putting forward is not the person they actually are. So there tends to be a lot of self-enhancement. Some early cues might be having lots of confidence, coming across very confident in your verbal and non-verbal presentation, the way you carry yourself. They tend to be very concerned about their physical appearance. So they tend to be quite stylish and put a lot of effort into their appearance. And so it can be really hard to pull apart what is the real person and what is the impression that they're trying to make. And sometimes it's like time that is going to reveal that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:53):

You said that there were kind of the two camps of the narcissistic personalities, one being grandiose, which I

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:35:01):

Think

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:01):

We all have somebody in mind you can think of that represents that, whether it's in your family or at work or in public here in the United States, but vulnerable. Because I think these can be sneakier and you don't realize that's what you're dealing with. And so can you talk a little bit about how the vulnerable narcissistic personality shows up? Hat are we looking for? Because I think this one's really sneaky.

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:35:32):

Yeah. So with respect to vulnerable narcissism, the entitlement and the willingness to exploit other people is still involved just like for grandiose

 

(00:35:43):

Narcissism. But they tend to have a real fragility to their ego. They're almost looking for your admiration to prop up something that's not there. And they tend to be very defensive and somewhat avoidant. And I think learning a little bit about what triggers these two different kind of types of narcissists actually pretty revealing. So the grandiose type tends to get very angry when there's a failure because they are supposed to be incredible and amazing and they're going to be pissed whenever they don't get that job, they don't get the promotion, they don't get the raise at work. Whereas for a vulnerable narcissist, because they're kind of getting that ego boost from other people, it's a rejection that really upsets them. And so if they get broken up with or someone just doesn't treat them very nicely, they tend to really react strongly to that kind of thing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:50):

How can this show up in a family, especially in the vulnerable narcissist? Is this the person that flies off the handle because you can't make it home this weekend? Is this the person that's just constantly giving you the guilt trip if you're not doing everything you wanted them to do because meeting expectations? If you don't do it, it's the rejection piece. How does this show up in a family?

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:37:16):

Yeah, so I mean they're going to have those same traits. So the entitlement, so whatever they want the family to do. After

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:24):

Everything I've done for

 

Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD (00:37:25):

You. Yes, exactly. Very willing to manipulate people. So using guilt trip, whatever it would be that would work to kind of push you around. And in addition to that, it's like rejection. So yeah, if you don't come to the birthday party, if you don't make it to the retirement party or whatever, you don't come home for Christmas, that is going to really set someone with vulnerable narcissism off. Whereas someone who's more grandiose narcissism kind of third off their shoulder. So they're big, whatever. Yeah, exactly.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:01):

Gotcha. Okay. That's so interesting.