5 Easy Steps to Make Your Home and Your Mind Clutter-Free

Mel Robbins (00:39:49):

Organization.

 

Dana K. White (00:39:51):

And two, it just sets myself up to have to go back through that box again. And then I'm going to second guess myself. And if I know that I'm going to go through it again, then I might put things in there that I haven't actually made a real decision about because I'm like, future me is going to have it all together. That's what I always thought. Someday I'm going to be organized. How could I not be? Right? So I'm going to put this in this box because I'll know what to do with it later. And instead I'm just putting off decisions and then I know that that box actually has decisions to be made. So then I put off dealing with that, and that's what people on, I'm not on TikTok, but I hear from a lot of people who call them doom boxes, and they're like, oh, doom boxes. Your process works for doom boxes. And I'm like, I think it didn't organize. Only moved is what it stands for, but just the word doo, I was like, oh, I know what that is. I had a lot of those over the years.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:48):

Well, I'm glad that you got very granular because the second you set a donate box, I immediately imagined a plastic or a cardboard box, and I immediately imagined me taking a sharpie and writing the word donate on a piece of paper and taping it to the side, and then I would fill it up and then have more questions about what's in that box. So you're basically just saying no, have a box that's already going to get donated to some bin that you can also drop off or basket and just, or

 

Dana K. White (00:41:20):

Amazon boxes, whatever,

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:21):

Or Amazon boxes. Do not write the word donate. Just know that this is going

 

Dana K. White (00:41:26):

Do. Write the word donate so that you remember that was a donate box.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:29):

Okay, so write the word donate,

 

Dana K. White (00:41:31):

Right? But don't decorate it. Don't make it something you're going to want to reuse.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:35):

Got it. Now when you do this, do you recommend that you just take that box in this session and just put it in the back of your car? You're done with this decluttering moment, or do we leave it

 

Dana K. White (00:41:47):

Somewhere? It's really up to you. It depends on how full it is. The decision making is over. Once the thing is in the box, the action of taking it somewhere to be donated or making the phone call to have a pickup scheduled or whatever, that is a valid use of your decluttering time. But I don't want you to not declutter because you're not going to be able to go drop it off today. So I will often have some donate. My husband would hear this and go, I always have a donate box or two or three in a spot in our garage that is ready to be taken wherever it needs to go. The decision making though, is where the real power is. And those things are just ready to know that, oh, we're going to such and such place. There's a donation drop off near there. Let's load 'em up and take 'em.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:43):

Great. Got it. What comes after donate?

 

Dana K. White (00:42:47):

Okay, so at this point we have removed trash easy stuff and obvious donations. So we are down to things that at first glance, you're like, either yes, they go here or I have no idea on this item what to do. So this is where my two decluttering questions come in. And I had seen, when I started this, I had seen lists, beautifully written lists of all kinds of questions to ask yourself about items and whether you want to donate it or keep it. I had too much stuff in my house to ask myself 10 questions about everything. And besides those questions generally let my brain spin out. Do I love it? Well, yeah, I love all this stuff. Why would I have it in my house if I didn't love it? So I couldn't ask myself those kinds of questions. So I came up with two questions, and if I can answer the first one, I don't even have to ask the second one. So the first question is...

Mel Robbins (00:45:29):

It's so true. Well, no. What I'm realizing, my goal is that I just want shit to look pretty. I've never even thought about organization as a way to make my life easier. And it's a genius question because I've put things in cabinets and drawers because I didn't know where else to put it.

 

Dana K. White (00:45:47):

Yes, this is how you establish the home. What I used to do was think about where my grandma kept hers and think, okay, well, her house was always great, so I should put mine in the place, or call my best friend who's way more organized than me and say, Hey, where do you keep your whatever? But how many people say as a joke, or there's a Facebook meme or something that says, I got organized and now I can't find anything, right? This doesn't allow for that to happen. I am putting it in the plate and it, it's hard in the beginning because you don't trust yourself. You're like, but what is the first place that pops in your mind where you would frantically look if you needed this item and had no idea where it was, where's the first place where you would look? This also is part of that accepting how I actually function as opposed to how organized people function. And I wish I was like them

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:50):

Yeah

 

Dana K. White (00:46:50):

And instead saying, okay, fingernail clippers were the thing. When I came up with this question as I was like, everybody else in the whole wide world surely would put their fingernail clippers in the bathroom drawer because that's where they're supposed to go. But in my family, whenever somebody is looking for fingernail clippers, they look in this junk drawer that's on the edge of the kitchen. That is just our reality. And I said, you know what? I would rather have things be in the first place where we look than try to be other people and never be able to find anything in my house.

 

Mel Robbins (00:47:34):

That's amazing. That's amazing. See, I don't know where to put nail clippers. So I just look in Chris's top drawer of the bathroom because that's, well,

 

Dana K. White (00:47:45):

If that's where you look first, then that's great. That's great. If that's where you look first, that's where they should be. Got it. It really doesn't, there is not a perfect place for things. There's the place where you would look first in your house. That's what matters. But then there's the second part of the question, which is not actually a question, but is actually the key to my no mess progress and only progress decluttering process. And that is when you answer that question, where would I look for this first? Take it there. Now people get all worked up over this. They are like, no, but that's can't be the most efficient way. And yet in the end it is. So here's the deal. 

Mel Robbins (00:48:47):

Yes,

 

Dana K. White (00:48:48):

This goes to the bathroom. And when I'm done, I will go deliver all these things through the house. And that makes so much more sense than taking it there right now.

 

(00:49:00):

But that's how things work. In an ideal world where I don't get distracted in the midst of a project, I don't stop halfway through. Nobody starts bleeding, right? God, that's the ideal world. I don't live in an ideal world. So I decided I'm going to go ahead and take it there right now, no piles. Because before I would step away for an hour or three weeks or whatever, and those neat little piles where I had totally made all these decisions, those neat little piles now morph into one big pile outside the space that I was initially decluttering. So my house looks worse than it did before.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:43):

That's

 

Dana K. White (00:49:43):

The whole make a bigger mess whenever you try to declutter.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:46):

Oh my gosh.

 

Dana K. White (00:49:47):

And so I said, I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to take it there right now, and then when I do that, I can stop. I'm accepting the fact that I will get distracted or life will happen. I can stop at some point, and this space is only better. It is never worse. I have never created a bigger mess. I'm taking one item at a time, making a final decision on it, and I'm acting on that final decision. So it's either gone in the trash bag, it's gone to, its already established home, it has gone in the donate box, or I have established a home by asking myself, where would I look for this first? And then I take it there now. So that's the key to all of this, and people will resist it, and then I'll say, just try it. And then they will try it, and then they will email me and say, I cannot believe the difference. I cannot believe I have actually made real progress decluttering for the first time in my life. It's working. It's changing my house because of that. Go ahead and take it there right now. But people don't like it, but it's still, it works.

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:49):

I'm just telling you,

Dana K. White (00:51:07):

And

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:07):

Then you're

 

Dana K. White (00:51:08):

Right. And it makes it

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:09):

Worse.

 

Dana K. White (00:51:09):

Yes. You come back to the space and you have to make all those decisions again, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:51:15):

Oh my God, I feel like I do this every weekend. That every weekend it is me on that hamster wheel of making piles and running things around and pulling apart stuff and holy smokes, this is revolutionary. What do you do about finding things that, how do you determine if you're keeping it? Because I feel like I get very paralyzed when I have an item and I've spent a lot of money for it, or somebody's given it to me, or I might need it some point 10 years from now, at what point do you actually take it to the junkyard? What's the difference between I'm throwing this out versus I'm donating.

 

Dana K. White (00:52:05):

So all of those questions that you have in your mind or that you just stated, those are the natural questions that people think they need to ask when they're decluttering. I don't ask those questions. I stick to the facts. And so my process leads me through and helps me make those decisions, but without all of the emotions, because I brought all this stuff into my house because I saw the value in it. And so before, when I would declutter, I would make value decision after value decision, which is exhausting, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:52:36):

Yes.

 

Dana K. White (00:52:36):

And then it's so emotionally exhausting, and I know it is that then I would put off decluttering because I was like, I don't have it in me to make those kinds of decisions today. So instead I say, okay, if I needed this item, where would I look for it first? And then I take it there now, and then I look at that space, and sometimes this is a common question people have is what do I do when that space is its own big decluttered mess? All I'm going to do is I'm going to not leave that space any worse. And I'm going to say, what am I willing to get rid of from this messy space where I would look for this item first?

 

(00:53:16):

What am I willing to get rid of from here that will create the space that I need for this item that I answered? I would look for it first here. So it might be trash. Ideally it's going to be trash or dead donations. Then my trash bag and my donate box are back at the space I was initially decluttering, and that'll take me back there, right?

 

(00:53:36):

So I'm just going to say, what in here? Trash, because it needs to be decluttered, right? I just said, it's a total mess. There's no room for this, so it's going to be decluttered, but I'm not doing that right now. I'm sticking with this initial space. And so I'm like, what in here am I willing to get rid of in order to make room for this? And so it helps me instead of saying, does this thing have value? I say, is there a space for it? Which is a very, what's the word? It's leaving my brain right now, but it's a very, I

 

Mel Robbins (00:54:05):

Dunno, I'm hanging on every single word. Well, what do you do if you have a basement or garage? There's space in there. Can I just give you an example? Sure. I'm starting to realize how nuts I am about this stuff. You

 

Dana K. White (00:54:18):

Are not

 

Mel Robbins (00:54:18):

Nuts. No, but I literally am realizing, and I don't know if you listening to us, are feeling the same sort of energy drain, but I'm realizing how much noise and just how much drama I add to the process of what I thought was organizing. And so I'll give you an example. So I've talked about how our son Oakley, who is very creative, who will love this process, who spent half of his Sunday organizing his room to make his dad happy, and then he did the big thing of clothes. I've admitted that I've ripped through it and pulled two things out. I don't know where I'm going to put that stuff. I guess it would go in my, I don't even know why I kept it. I kept it because it was something that I bought him for Christmas that was rather expensive. And then there's a jacket that's like a fall jacket that, because I bought it for him when he was 15.

 

(00:55:14):

He literally wore it for about a minute before he grew out of it, and it was expensive. And so I see this jacket, I grab it, I'm like, okay, we live in Vermont. People visit, should I hold onto this in case somebody visits and they didn't pack a jacket. Maybe this would fit me and it would fit this. And then I literally attach all this meaning, and I create these stories about why I need to keep the thing and the value of the thing. And if I ask myself, if I needed this item, where would I look for it? I'm even stalled because I go, well, I don't really need it in the mud room. Maybe I should create a place in the basement for extra clothes for guests who forgot clothes that you need when you visit Vermont. What the fuck is going on? I donate, duh. Well,

 

Dana K. White (00:56:08):

Okay, is this normal? You? Yes. What you just described is your brain spinning out, okay? Yes.

 

(00:56:15):

A lot of people who are naturally organized and who see this and go, I mean, I'll just be honest. How many times in your life, how many times in my life have I had somebody go, why are you thinking that way? That is exactly how my brain worked, which is the reason I just had somebody recently say to me, I can follow your process because I know all of my reasons why I want to keep this and still have a process that works. When I'm talking to someone who's like, those are dumb reasons. Everything you said made sense to me. I get it right. And yet when I thought that way my house was a disaster, and I was frustrated with it, and I had all those feelings of what is wrong with me? I hate to just be like, let's go back to the process. Except that,

 

Mel Robbins (00:57:13):

No, let's go back to the process

 

Dana K. White (00:57:16):

Is what talks you through all of this.

 

(00:57:19):

So the second decluttering question that I only ask myself if my first response to where would I look for this first, whether it's about the jacket, whether it's about a stapler, whatever. If I look at the item and I'm like, where would I look for this first? And my answer is, okay, then I ask myself the question, if I needed this item, would it ever occur to me that I already had one? Okay. I can think about this being in your scenario that you were talking about with it, but we're not going to bring the scenario into it. We're just going to ask the fact-based question, if I needed this jacket, would it occur to me that we already had one? And it's tough because holding it in your hand, it's there, it's in front of you. And then how many of us are like, well, I just decluttered something and then I ended up needing it.

 

(00:58:21):

But I had to make progress in my home. I had to get stuff out of my house. So I had to make these hard calls and say, I'm going to be honest. If I needed this, would it occur to me that I already had one because I didn't have a place where I would look for it first, which means I would not have even gone looking for it. Instead, I would've done without, we would've said, Hey, here's six sweatshirts, kid who forgot your coat, or, Hey, let's run by the store and grab one, or whatever. But those are both valid options. But the thing is, if I didn't get rid of this item and I wouldn't have looked for it if I needed it, it's just sitting in my house and I'm adding more to it as I go and grab what I need because it doesn't occur to me that I already have one. So that right there is me saying, this is my reality check. I'm going to stick it in the donate box. If I insist that I would know that I had it, then I have to go back to that first question and say, where would I actually look for this first? Not that I think it's going to be there, but literally, if I know for sure that I have this, then there has to be a first place where I would look, and I need to be honest with myself about that too.

 

Mel Robbins (00:59:35):

Wow. This is fascinating because it is a whole new way to think about this, because again, just to come back to this example, it wasn't even like I saw it in the mudroom. I came out of my bedroom, and I don't know if anybody else's family members do this, but somehow our staircase upstairs is the garbage and laundry shoot where people just chuck things over the banister and they land up at the bottom of the stairs. And so there was the donate trash bag with the flannel shirts that I ripped out, and then laying a couple stairs above was this jacket that long, longer fits him. And you can do this process is what I'm realizing in that moment, because I think that's also the reality. The of the 

Dana K. White (01:01:12):

If I needed this item, would it ever occur to me that I already had one?

 

Mel Robbins (01:01:16):

If I needed this item, would it occur to me that I already had one? And the answer is yes. I have the exact same size in a jacket for me, I buy the same company. So yes,

 

Dana K. White (01:01:29):

I have one. Would it occur to you that you had the second one, that you had your son's jacket? Because if it would, then it's fine to go take it with the place where you would look for it first, because we're also going to address the reality of that space as we get into the last step of the process. Got it. So

 

Mel Robbins (01:01:45):

Let's just say, let's indulge my psycho ness. Okay? I think we all have that. If you're a creative mind, you're also thinking, huh, someday, 15 years from now, there might be a scenario where I wish I had this, right? Yes. So let's just say I go, okay, where am I going to look for this first? And I make a snap decision. This goes in my guest closet, and I have a little rack in the basement.

 

Dana K. White (01:02:13):

No, you didn't make a decision. You asked yourself a question that revealed your instinct of where you would look for it first. Sorry, I just had to

 

Mel Robbins (01:02:23):

No, no, no. Great, great. If I needed this item, where would I look for it first? And my instinct would be, it would be in the basement in a little area I've created for extra stuff in case somebody needs to borrow something, which I dunno why I need this, but I had it. So I would then go downstairs to the basement to this place that has not been created yet, and I would put the jacket there.

 

Dana K. White (01:02:51):

If that's the place where you would look for it first, then you put it there. But if there is no thing there, there's no place for it, but there's a pile of other stuff. Okay, I'm not going to leave that any worse. So what am I willing to get rid of in order to make room for this jacket, which means something is leaving your house. So you are decluttering. But often it will help you realize, oh wait, there's not actually a good place for this here. Or, wait, I'm not willing to get rid of any of this stuff in order for this jacket to stay. And it will help you realize, oh, I can just donate this. I got to donate

 

Mel Robbins (01:03:29):

This thing. Yeah, that's what I'm getting through all of this. I'm realizing this process helps you deal with

 

Dana K. White (01:03:34):

Yourself. Yes. But if you don't take it there, now you're living in this land of hypotheses.

 

Mel Robbins (01:03:42):

I'm still thinking about the damn jacket

 

Dana K. White (01:03:44):

Right now. Yeah. You're like, oh, oh, I'm going to put it down there. Yeah, I'll make a space down there.

 

Mel Robbins (01:03:48):

Yes, yes.

 

Dana K. White (01:03:49):

But you're not dealing with the reality of that actual space. You're not dealing with the reality of, oh, wow, I cannot stand going in this basement and think, and I don't know. I live in Texas, we don't have basements. I'm very jealous of people with basements, but I'm, in my mind, I'm like, if I take it down to this spot and then I realize this spot is full of spiders and all this stuff, and I don't want to leave a jacket down here, but when I go there, it forces me into that reality. So much of what I do, probably a hundred percent honestly, of what I do, is just a process that helps me accept reality. Reality about myself, love this reality about my stuff, reality about my space, all that.

 

Mel Robbins (01:04:30):

I love this. What is the final step in this process?

 

Dana K. White (01:04:34):

Okay, so let's say, and this is going to apply to any space, all those spaces where you're taking things, but we're talking about the space that you are working on, okay?

 

Mel Robbins (01:04:43):

The mudroom

 

Dana K. White (01:04:43):

At this point, you have removed trash easy stuff, which belongs somewhere else. You've removed duh donations, and you are down because you've gone through the two decluttering questions. You are only down or you are down to things that you would look for in this space. That's the only stuff that's in here is stuff that you would look for. But if the drawer still won't close, that's not working right? If it's still spilling outside of itself, then that's not going to work. So this last step is implementing what I call the container concept, which is something that when I had this realization about containers, It was something that if I was not writing about it as I was doing it, I would have probably been embarrassed to share it with a random person. But because I was just like, I'm just writing about what I'm figuring out. I wasn't trying to teach anybody anything at that point, and everybody went, what? This changes everything. I was like, oh, okay. So it's not just me that this is valuable for it. So here's the container concept. I used to think

(01:06:28):

That's the difference between her and me. She has a red bucket. I don't have a red bucket. That's why my space is a disaster. So I would go and buy a red bucket, and I would dump crayons in there, and I would realize, oh, I still got 700 crayons left over. Why does this not work for me the way it works for her? So I would go out and buy two more red buckets, and then I would put the rest of my crayons in those red buckets. I'd go to put the red buckets on the shelf and my shelf wouldn't fit three red buckets. And I would think, are you kidding me? Why is this so hard for me? Why does this not work for me? And then eventually I would be like, well, obviously I need more shelves, so I'd buy more shelves. And then at some point I would think, well, I don't have any room for more shelves. Obviously I need a new house. And we can't afford a new house right now, so I am doomed to be disorganized. That is just how my brain worked. I just thought that if I ran out of space in a container, I bought another container. And in reality, her space, I mean her house was smaller than mine, but in my mind, my issue was that my house was too small, which doesn't make sense, but it made total sense to my brain. Makes sense before. Makes sense,

 

(01:07:37):

Right? So when I was working, I was talking to myself, that's what I do with how I've been able to build what I've built. But I was talking and I was saying container, and I went, container contain. The word contain is in there, serve as a limit, set a boundary. Like firefighters contain a fire, they create a boundary, and as long as the fire stays inside the boundary, they can keep it under control. But if it goes outside the boundary, bad things. So their whole goal is to keep it within this boundary. And I realized, oh, a container is not for putting things in a container is meant to serve as a limit. To serve as a boundary. And that changed everything for me because I was able to say, okay, here's the red bucket. It's not going to fit everything, but it's the boundary.

 

(01:08:39):

So I'm going to put my favorite crayons in first. And when it's full, something happens in my brain and I realize, oh, maybe I don't need a thousand crayons, and I haven't had to make value decisions. Remember we were talking about this thing, but what about when I might use it? And what about, and it was expensive and blah, blah, blah. Before I would pick up every single crayon. I mean, this is all hypothetical, but not really. But I would pick up every crayon and be like, wow. I mean, I know it's broken, but broken crayons still color, right?

 

Mel Robbins (01:09:15):

Oh, yes, that's right.

 

Dana K. White (01:09:16):

Right? I mean, there's Facebook memes about that, right? Oh my

 

Mel Robbins (01:09:19):

God.

 

Dana K. White (01:09:20):

So I would make all these, and it took forever for me to analyze every single one. And instead it's just, I'm going to put my favorite ones in first, and I'm going to let the container make the hard decision for me.

 

(01:09:32):

And then when I go to put the red bucket on the shelf, I have to acknowledge that the shelf is also a container. The shelf is a limit, and it determines how many red buckets I can have. And the size of the room determines how many shelves I can have. And the size of my house is the size of my house. Remember? It's that reality acceptance. So I'm like, the size of my house is the size of my house. And if I'm going to put my favorite things in first, and I'm going to realize my house is a container, my house is a limit. What's my favorite thing in my house? It's the people who live in it. So we deserve space first, which means I can't just keep putting in more shelves that make it hard for me to move around and make it hard for me to get to where I need to get. And so that just shifted everything. And I said, does it have space in the container? It actually doesn't matter how valuable something is, how much sentimental feelings I have toward it, does it have space? I can keep anything, but I can't keep everything and my house ever have a chance of being under control.

 

(01:10:43):

So that's the container concept, which changes how you look at your house and how you look at your stuff and lets me let go of things because I'm like, it's not me. I see the value. It's the container. I don't have the space for it. And that is very freeing.

 

Mel Robbins (01:11:02):

Jesse, could you go grab me those two mason jars in the back with the pencils on 'em, on our little caddy full of shit in the office?

 

Dana K. White (01:11:12):

I hope not.

 

Mel Robbins (01:11:17):

Oh, it's this one. It's this one. Okay. So this one's good because we use, I've got mason jars that have sharpies, which we use, but I've got point out here that this right here are watercolor pencils that Chris's mother gave to one of our kids probably 10 Christmases ago.

 

(01:11:42):

And I've never used them. I don't want them. I tried to organize them by putting them in this jar, and then I thought, okay, I'll just put 'em in the office in case we ever decide we'd like to watercolor someday as an art project. They were probably 20 bucks. But I remember my mother-in-law saying to one of our kids when she gave them to them when they were in fourth grade, now you better take care of these. These are real art supplies. These are watercolor pencils. These are really good. So here I am literally organizing them in a fucking jar and then finding a space in my office where they do not belong. These have never been used by me, and I have carted them from our old house to our new house and spent time organizing these motherfuckers to look good.

 

Dana K. White (01:12:49):

And you can blame the container. You can blame the reality of the space. But here's the other thing too, though. They need to go in the trash. I don't. They're old maybe. Honestly, probably they do.

 

Mel Robbins (01:13:01):

Yeah. Oh my God.

 

Dana K. White (01:13:03):

Here's the thing. Sometimes people are like, and this is where I always get the questions as soon as I've done talking, speaking about decluttering, is people will be like, maybe it's for them. They used to be an artist. They used to have the time, the bandwidth, whatever.

 

(01:13:25):

And now, either because of physical limitations or time limitations, they can't anymore. So maybe for them, the watercolor pens or pencils, I'm not artistic enough to know which one they are. But anyway, for them, they're like, but that's so sentimental. Here's the beauty here can keep it if you have the space, but you can't keep it and everything else. So it's like, what am I willing to let go of? So I give the space to this item that is important to me, but it also lets me go, you know what? We need the pens that we actually use in here.

 

(01:14:02):

And so this allows me to get rid of these ones and identify it as, wait a minute, we never use that. I kept it for all these years because I thought, oh, it value, oh, whatever. And instead, I'm just going to let that go. So the step in the process is to, the first step that you do to be ready to embrace the realities of your space is to consolidate things, meaning put things together, put your pens together, put your books. If it's all books, put your dictionaries together or whatever, all the different types of books together, because that will often help you realize, oh yeah, I actually don't need seven skillets. But as long as they're all put in different places, you're like, okay. But if you put 'em together, that's the first step of this fifth process. I mean this fifth step in the process. And then you're naturally going, oh yeah. Oh wait, I don't use these four, but as long as they're spread out, you're not going to see that. So you consolidate. And then once you have done that, you say, I am going to purge my least favorites until everything fits usable and

 

(01:15:16):

Get ably in this space. So it's not how much can I shove in there? It's how much can I have in here and be able to see and access with my clutter threshold? How much stuff can I do? So for me, I have a very low clutter threshold. So I purge until everything has its own space on the actual counter. And instead of worrying about finding some way to keep more, I just say, you know what? I want to be able to open this cabinet, reach in, grab my skillet, and not have to move three things. If I have to move three things, we all know I'm not putting 'em back neatly. So it's better for me to just have one and be able to access that easily. So it's purging down to the realities of this space until it all fits, get to and usable, which ultimately means it's organized, even though I haven't bought any organizing products.

 

Mel Robbins (01:16:07):

Holy shit, I feel like you've been here in my house because when you said the thing about the skillets, I imagine myself pulling open the drawer next to the stove where there are stacks of slanky, old skillets mismatched on top. It just is, holy cow, I'm so excited to go implement this. So we have a listener that has a question, and this is something that I think a lot of us struggle with, where you've got one person that's really good at organizing, and then you have somebody in the relationship like you and me who's creative and that has clutter. And so let's play this question. I'd love to hear your advice on how you deal with that kind of relationship conflict.

Mel Robbins (01:17:26):

Dana.

 

Dana K. White (01:17:27):

Yes,

 

Mel Robbins (01:17:28):

Please help us. I am her husband,

 

Dana K. White (01:17:32):

And I think that's where I come in into the scenario is I always say, just so you know, I'm speaking from the perspective of her husband am not, there is not a way to change other people, and nobody likes to be changed,

 

(01:17:48):

Especially in a relationship. I mean, it often makes you hold on tighter to your stuff when you're just criticizing or whatever. So I'm not saying that that's what she's doing at all, but here are the things to remember that we've talked about clutter threshold. Your husband has a different clutter threshold than you do

 

(01:18:09):

In common spaces. Declutter down to the lowest common clutter threshold. Now, I am not a math person, but I do sort of remember what lowest common denominators were. And so it's like you just go down more and more and more until you hit that lowest common clutter threshold in shared spaces. That doesn't mean you can't have elaborate systems in your spaces that are yours to be in charge of, or we all have different spaces within our home. But in those common spaces, it is likely never going to be satisfactory for you if you just create an elaborate system that would work for you, and then try to push him into that system instead. Remember the value of decluttering. If something does not exist in your home, it cannot end up all over the place.

 

(01:19:10):

Now along with that, I'm not saying get rid of his stuff so that it can't get out of control. That's not what I'm saying at all, right? But when we go back to the container concept as far as things that are his, give him a space, and I don't mean this is your space, but I mean honor the fact that he has things that he's into that are different from yours. You have things that you're into as well and say, okay, I going to clear out this closet or this shelf or whatever space we have available. I'm going to clear this out and say, Hey, this is for you. This is what I did for my husband who also, I mean, I'm very thankful that he's not super neat, but he's way neater than me. So he's always been very, very patient with all of my issues.

 

(01:20:01):

But what I did was I cleaned out something where I had thought I needed to have a place for, I think it's where I kept my kids out of season clothes. And I said, no, I'm going to clear that out. I'm going to empty it out, and I'm going to say, Hey, this is your space for all of your 1980s memorabilia, collectibles that you have collected over the years, because he loves that kind of stuff. But he didn't really do anything with it. And so it was just kind of there and it would just get shifted all around. So I'm like, this is the space for this. And he was like, oh, oh, wow, okay. Because I was saying, I'm not going to have this argument over. Why do you have that stuff that the word why will shut people down immediately, right?

 

(01:20:45):

So instead say, okay, this is the place that I have created for you. So yeah, put your favorite things in there first and then, I mean, whatever doesn't fit, we will get rid of that. But that worked so well. And it's so funny because my husband has come on my podcast whenever I hit a hundred episodes. And so on the hundredth episode, it was his first time on there and somebody had asked a question for him and How does Dana help you declutter? And he was like, well, she gave me, she cleared out this thing that, and then she told me, Hey, put your favorite memorabilia stuff in there first. And then she was like, whatever doesn't fit, get rid of that. And he was like, and that just made it really easy for me to determine what I loved and what I didn't love as much.

 

(01:21:31):

And I said, oh yeah, the container concept. And he was like, what? You don't have to explain the container concept to them. Give them a space and say, Hey, this is your space. And then the key there is to not judge what they put in it. Let them just put their favorite things in first. And there is no criticism over that. And this happens a lot with kids. You say, okay, this is, put your favorite stuffed animals in here first, and then they don't keep the one that you spent a lot of money on and that you thought was going to be highly sentimental. And instead they keep the one that the neighbor gave them that they won at six flags and it's leaking little white pebbles or whatever. I mean, they get to put in their container, whatever. You can keep anything, but you can't keep everything and then you let the container be the bad guy. So it's like,

 

Mel Robbins (01:22:25):

Just so I'm clear, I really relate to this question and the reason why I relate to this question is Chris's clutter threshold is way lower than mine. And the truth is he is always picking up after me. My coat is always on the back of the chair

 

Dana K. White (01:22:43):

And can I clarify something?

 

Mel Robbins (01:22:45):

Yes.

 

Dana K. White (01:22:49):

Clutter threshold is the amount of stuff that you can handle so he can handle, it's possible his clutter threshold is higher than yours.

 

Mel Robbins (01:23:00):

Oh, that's what I meant. Higher,

 

Dana K. White (01:23:01):

Yes. I

 

Mel Robbins (01:23:02):

Meant lower meaning he's got to have less stuff around. So his clutter threshold is higher than mine. And if he sees something out of place, he is immediately drawn to go put it in its place. And you, I'm the kind of person that I blow my nose with the Kleenex, I'm on my way to the trash can something distracts me. I put the Kleenex on the counter and we have endless, not fights, but it's frustrating for him because he has often said, it makes me feel like you think I'm your maid. And I'm like, no, I just don't care about hanging my coat up right now and I'll get to it later. How do you handle this conflict between an organized person and somebody who has a lower threshold?

 

Dana K. White (01:23:50):

I do want to be clear that I'm not a mental health professional. I always try to make that clear, right? Okay. It's not easy. This is literally the number one question, but I am going to talk to you as the person asking me this question, alright? Because you are the only person that you can control. So we can't control him in this situation. But you are asking because it does, it's a frustration in this. What I'll say on that is the five minute pickup is the answer to your tendency to randomly put things down. Okay,

 

Mel Robbins (01:24:27):

What is the five minute pickup?

 

Dana K. White (01:24:29):

So the five minute pickup is a daily or mostly daily habit routine, whatever you want to call it that gets, the reason I don't call it habits necessarily is that I thought habits were going to be magical and that if I could just get this down someday, I would be doing my dishes and picking things up and I didn't even realize I did my dishes. That's not how it works. I still have to talk myself through it, but it's a routine, and so it's going to set the timer for five actual minutes, not trying to trick myself into working for longer, but I'm going to set the timer for five minutes at whatever point in the day where it crosses my mind that, oh wait, there's stuff all over. I'm going to set the timer for five minutes. I'm going to pick stuff up and put it all the way away for five minutes.

 

(01:25:16):

And that is the thing that will help me to deal with the Kleenexes that are there, deal with the coat that is here. Those things get put away. So it's like how I combat my natural tendency and keep my house under control. But the other thing that happens is the more often that I do that, the more likely it is. It's never guaranteed. And it depends on how much I have going on in my brain at the time, but the more often I do that, the more likely I am to start to put something down and then realize, oh, every single day I have to come and pick up this thing from this spot. So I'm much more likely to put it away. Okay, got it. So that's my answer to you in this scenario. My answer to him, if he was asking me this question,

 

(01:26:02):

The first thing I would do is tell a little story about my husband and we do this thing where on our anniversary we'll write in a journal. And in the beginning it was like all these things we've learned about each other and it was so easy, and now we're trying to come up with stuff. It's been 23 years. But one of the things he said probably two to three years into this deification process that I was going through is he was like, he goes, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I've realized that there, it's like there actually is something wrong with you. And I was so happy that he said that to me because what he was saying was because he went on to say, I've realized you don't do this on purpose.

 

Mel Robbins (01:26:54):

Yes,

 

Dana K. White (01:26:56):

You are not refusing to close the cabinet doors.

 

Mel Robbins (01:26:59):

Yes.

 

Dana K. White (01:27:00):

You just literally don't notice whether they're open or closed. You are not putting something down thinking, oh, he will get rid of that later. You don't realize it. And so he was very nice and sweet about it, but he just said, he said, I've realized this is how your brain works. And I was like, thank you. Exactly. And he realized that as I was working on ways to combat how my brain works naturally, so it wasn't just every time I say accept how I am, I am not saying so, oh, well, my house is a disaster. Instead it's accept how I am so that I can actually do things in a way that work for me so that my house is manageable, it's still not perfect, never going to be color coded, but it's manageable. I can handle it. And so anyway, that's the thing I would say there, but also to realize that it comes down to that clutter threshold, and remember, you're probably not going to help the other person do better in these types of things by organizing. You're going to help them by decluttering even some of your own stuff in that common area

 

(01:28:14):

Where we both use this space, it's better for us to have less stuff in here so that there's less stuff to get out of control.

 

Mel Robbins (01:28:20):

So do you recommend that a couple do that together to start in the common space so that you both learn

 

Dana K. White (01:28:27):

The process not to start? I recommend that whoever is listening to me, I always say, I'm like, you're the one listening to this lady on the internet who has referred to herself as a slob. I mean, I'm like, you're the one who cares enough to be listening to this podcast right now or whatever, and so you go ahead and deal with your own stuff. Don't start with the other person's stuff that is a recipe for disaster, and yet their stuff is more obviously clutter, but start with your own stuff first and neutral stuff, invisible spaces, and I can't guarantee it except that it happened to me and it happens to so many people who contact me. As you do that and your family starts to see, oh, okay, you're getting rid of stuff that I never thought you would get rid of, or, oh, it's so much easier to live in our house with less stuff. Then other people start to get on board their view of stuff and clutter starts to change. So the first thing to do is for you to worry about your own stuff before you try to get anyone else on board.

 

Mel Robbins (01:29:32):

For anybody listening that's going to go straight to a visible space and start this process, can you just let them know a little bit about the emotional aspect of trying to let go of stuff and going through the process of decluttering?

 

Dana K. White (01:29:54):

Yeah. So my five step process specifically purposefully does not use emotions to declutter, but it's because I was so emotionally attached to my stuff, either because it represented who I thought I was going to be someday or who I had been in the past,

 

(01:30:17):

Or just sentimental things that people had given me that they gave me because they were like, oh, Dana will treasure this, and I'm like, oh, do I have to change who I am? So the process doesn't use any of that, but it allows for it. Okay, so I am not going to ask you to be heartless. I'm not going to ask you to change how you feel about things, but start with the trash, because the beauty of that is as you start with these things and you make visible progress before you've ever even dealt with anything that has emotion attached to it is you see the progress that you're making and you realize, oh wow, open space, less stuff changes my house. It changes how this space looks, and then by the time you get to more emotional stuff, it looks different to you, right?

 

Mel Robbins (01:31:15):

Oh, that's

 

Dana K. White (01:31:15):

Great. You have created the space to be able to keep that item where when we're like, that's going to be emotional, and so I'm not going to do anything. I can't deal with those emotions, then that stuff just sits there and it's sitting with all this other stuff that isn't emotional and that makes it never make any progress. And so know that you can make a ton of progress before you ever have to deal with emotional stuff. The other thing too is this is something you can step away from. So start on those first three steps that have zero emotions, and then if you get to emotional stuff, either skip that item and say, I'm not dealing with that today. I'm going to move to the next thing. Just don't let it stop the process because as you continue to improve your home, you will either create the room for it or you'll be ready to deal with it.

 

Mel Robbins (01:32:06):

Phenomenal. I have three final questions to ask you. You've been sensational, by the way, just sensational. You distinguish between routines and to-do lists. Can you explain that?

 

Dana K. White (01:32:19):

Sure. So as a project person, I would look around my house and think I'm changing today, today's the day, this is it, right? And so I would make a list of all the things I needed to do. Well, just looking at that list of all the things I needed to do was completely exhausting. So the way I actually started to change my home was by just focusing on what I had always thought of as maintenance tasks, and it didn't make sense for me to do maintenance things. When my house was disaster. I was like, no, I need to get my house perfect. Then it will make sense to maintain. But instead I was like, well, that's not working, but I do know that other people don't have to spend hours in their kitchen getting the kitchen clean when it's time to clean the house, and I do.

 

(01:33:04):

And so just so I started on these very basic things, and so I started with doing the dishes. I was like, I don't know how other people don't seem to have dirty dishes piled on their counter at all times, but they don't. And so I am going to focus on this. And so I started working on the dishes. I started working on just anyway, just focused in on that and would take about seven days is what I found to be like, okay, now I get it. Now it's starting to feel natural, and then I would move on to another thing. And so I was adding daily habits, and that is what changed my house. That plus decluttering, not organizing, not decorating, not anything but daily stuff. Plus decluttering gave me the house that I'd always wanted. So I boiled it down to two very basic habits, really.

 

(01:33:58):

There are four that I talk about in how to manage your home without losing your mind, but if you can't do those, you just do these two. And if you can't do both, you just do one. And the first one is do the dishes. So it's like even when I start to feel completely overwhelmed and I'm like, do the dishes, I hear from people all the time. I hear your voice all the time saying, just do the dishes. That gives me something to do to get started. Then the next thing is the five minute pickup. If I will do that, even if my house is a disaster right now, I'm not going to get it perfect first and then start doing five minute pickups. I'm just going to do a five minute pickup every day at the least, and then declutter with any time that I have. Great.

 

Mel Robbins (01:34:35):

What's the third routine?

 

Dana K. White (01:34:37):

Yes. Checking the bathrooms for clutter is another one. I'm not even talking about cleaning it. I'm not talking about cleaning it. I'm just talking about checking it for clutter, make sure that when it's time to clean it, all I have to do is clean it. It's not covered like you were talking about your bathroom counter, stuff like that. And then the other is sweep the kitchen floor. It's not so much about the crumbs, it's more about an action that helps me see what has been scattered on the floor, like the groceries where I took the frozen stuff and the refrigerated stuff out, and then I left the other stuff on the floor and it's been there for a couple days or whatever. So that type, it's a routine that helps me keep my house under. If I will do those four things, my house looks fine. It's not perfect, but it looks fine if I will do those. And so what I found was I wanted to boil it down so far that I didn't need a list. So I don't have to say, oh, wow, my house is overwhelming. I need to make a new plan. Instead, I just say, my house is overwhelming. I'm going to do the dishes. Doing the dishes significantly improves my home.

 

Mel Robbins (01:35:45):

Wow,

 

(01:35:46):

I Love this. I love this.

 

(01:35:47):

I can do this. This is awesome. And here's a big one. Now that we're getting into the routine of these four things, and we have five minute pickups that help us with our relationship because we're kind of on a daily basis decluttering and we have the five-step decluttering process that has become part of the way that we live and we're seeing progress. How do you stop bringing new stuff into your home?

 

Dana K. White (01:36:20):

So you know how when you get sick from some kind of a food and then you never want to eat that food again?

 

(01:36:29):

Like, okay, it's because you had a negative experience with it. That's the beauty of decluttering. So all this angst that you're going to feel, even in my non-emotional process, you're still going to have times where you're like, I cannot believe I am sticking this in my donate box when I was so excited and spent $75 on it and blah, blah, blah, and then I never did anything. Those feelings are going to serve you well in the future because the more you declutter, there's a big difference in what you see at the store or the garage sale, which was my problem. That stuff is going to look different to you because you will have decluttered something very similar to it, and you'll start to see it as future clutter. So the way to stop shopping is to take that same energy that you used to spend shopping and put it into decluttering, and then it's going to change how everything looks, and it will naturally keep you from bringing things into your house because of the pain and just the physical effort that you've put out through all of that time that you've spent decluttering

 

Mel Robbins (01:37:39):

And all the money that you see that you wasted by buying stuff that you now don't need, that you've now donated that you didn't use,

 

Dana K. White (01:37:47):

Where before you saw the $5 price tag and you thought, that's a bargain, and now you've decluttered four things like that item or just similar enough to it that you see the $5 and you're like, that's $5 wasted. It just shifts things in your brain.

 

Mel Robbins (01:38:04):

Oh, I can't wait.

 

Dana K. White (01:38:06):

Dana

 

Mel Robbins (01:38:06):

White. You are incredible. Thank you. Thank you. You've been so kind, so much for being here on the Mel Robbins podcast. I can't wait to have you back. I'll come back anytime. Is there anything else that we didn't get to that you just wanted to share?

 

Dana K. White (01:38:24):

Yeah, I did want to be clear with the five-step process, the progress and only progress part of it. That means you do not have to set aside a specific amount of time to declutter because for the person who's overwhelmed, I would look at my space and assess how much time it was probably going to take, and because I had always done the pull everything out and make all these piles, and then it never worked out well, I would think, oh, I'm going to need a whole day, so I can't do anything until I have a whole day, or I can't do anything until Christmas break or whatever. But when you're following the progress and only progress, I'm going to make this space better with every single thing that leaves it, and then I make a final decision about, and then I act on that final decision, then that means I can literally work for any amount of time. So if I have an awkward pause in my day of seven minutes, I can throw away trash and I've made this space better. That mindset shift changed my home.

 

Mel Robbins (01:39:22):

Well, you've changed my life and you're going to be changing my home. And I can see that because I'm like, I'm beginning the decluttering process right now by taking this jar of 10-year-old mismatched watercolor pencils, and I am putting them in the trash, and that feels liberating. Dana, thank you so much. We have loved having you on the podcast. We'll absolutely have you back. I cannot wait to talk to you. We'll have to do cleaning next. Let's do it. Done. All right. Thank you. You're the best. You're the best. This was fun. You're so good. Hey, it's Mel, and I wanted to jump into the middle of that podcast episode you were watching to make sure you knew about a free opportunity that I created for you. It's a new three part training called Take Control with Mel Robbins. It is packed with science. It is packed with action.

 

(01:40:26):

It's exactly what you need right now. I know that you are tired of feeling like you're in survival mode. You're tired of merely coping, and it is time to tap back into your excellence and power again. Let me coach you, let me guide you on the steps that you need to take in order to level up and start executing. It's going to feel so great to start winning again. All you got to do is click on the link right there in the caption. It's mel robbins.com/take control. It is free. It is for you, and you need to be in it. Now, let's go back to the podcast.

 

(01:41:05):

I don't know about you, but I feel like I just need to sprint down the stairs and go to my mudroom with a black trash bag. I feel so empowered, but the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to run and go find my husband Chris, because he needs to listen to this because I think it will change our dynamic. I am so excited. I cannot wait to hear how you put everything you just learned into use to create a better life. And in case nobody else tells you, I'm going to tell you I love you, especially you slobs out there, you people who can't get your shit together like me, you bathroom counter clutters. I see you. You're my people. And for you, if you're the OCD Neatnik, that's a walking Excel spreadsheet. I love you two, please use today's episode to be kinder to yourself, to declutter, and to go create a better life. Alrighty, I'll see you in a few days. Oh, one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.