Signs You’re Dealing With a Narcissist (New Research From World-Leading Expert Dr. Ramani)

Mel Robbins (00:38:56):

Can you give us some examples?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:38:58):

So a great example of that would be you've got the victimized vulnerable narcissist. Who doesn't want to work as hard as everyone else, who feels like things should come easier, who might even be jealous of other people in the workplace that are leveling up so they complain to other people? Vulnerable narcissist is savvier than you think because they're paying attention to who the fertile targets are, who's willing to sit with them, who's willing to say, no, no, no, you're really smart too. I could totally see this working out for you. But what they're doing though too, is they're raising suspicion about oftentimes maybe the mission and vision of the organization or other people who are succeeding in the organization. And what it does is it ruins the sense of collaboration. So it would be that person who's just like, can you believe her? She, I don't know.

 

(00:39:46):

I'm not such a big fan of her. And then they keep talking and talking enough people start to agree, and then you'll see eye rolling at a meeting or you might see people just like a lot of that stuff. And then people are noticing like, gosh, it feels more intense here than it always was, but it was that one vulnerable narcissistic person who didn't want to do the work, who was always complaining, who was very entitled, but in this grudging way, so people felt guilty about it, felt pity for them. And now all of a sudden the energy in the room has changed in a family.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:18):

Forget

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:40:18):

About it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:19):

I mean, I sound feel like you're describing a family and a parent that then goes to a sibling who's mad at the other sibling. Sibling. And so that sibling becomes a messenger friend groups where the person who feels left out goes to a friend to complain that they feel sad, so that the friend then goes to the person organizing the party. So-and-so feels left out.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:40:42):

And then what it does though is when we really see triangulation at the highest levels, the narcissistic person's almost like a puppeteer pulling the strings. They get to be above it all, and they get to watch all the chaos that's starting to ensue. So what was once a healthy family, healthy work group, healthy group of friends is now more fractured, centralizing more power in the narcissistic person.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:04):

So does the person that has a narcissistic personality style, are they conscious that they're doing this or is it like this immature emotional kind of stunted growth inside them? That means that when they feel triggered or they feel that sense of grudge 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:41:31):

So this is where some people, the argument that narcissism is a trauma response, they're very quickly trying to feel safe as the shame bubbles up. The only way I can describe, can I use a gross reference? Because I can use, you can do.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:44):

You are the

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:41:44):

World's leading expert. Do it. Okay, this is really gross and down market, but I'm going to say it. If you've ever had terrible diarrhea, yes, I'm just going to be this gross. This is as gross as it gets. And you're like, oh my God, if I don't get to a bathroom, I'm going to shit my pants.

 

Mel Robbins (00:41:59):

Yes.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:41:59):

Right? Think of the shame associated with that. And when you to think of the shame, like I'm about to shit my pants in an airplane, in an airport, in a work meeting, think of how you feel

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:09):

And also the urgency. I'm like, I this right now. Get out of my way,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:42:17):

Right? Yes. Right. So you're not listening to the meeting. No, you're not listening to the conversation. You're like, I have to get to a bathroom, or I'm about to embarrass the hell out of myself. This is awful.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:27):

And it gets to the point where you don't even think it

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:42:30):

Overrides. So that diarrhea is how a narcissistic person feels every time that shame starts to come up. That's the best way I can describe. So they're not listening to you. They're like, shame coming up, but I don't even know. It's shame. At least we know it's what it is, right? But they don't know. So it's this feeling of that sort of psychological diarrhea and they're like, nobody can see this. And so what do they do? Their equivalent of running to the bathroom is to become entitled and grandiose or in most cases, rageful. When we look at a cots work on this, who a theoretician wrote back in the sixties and seventies, he would say this, shame and rage is one of the central cores of the narcissistic presentation. So what will happen is the psychological diarrhea, got to find a bathroom. The bathroom is F you, Mel. What? You don't know what you're talking about. So now I'm powerful. Mel is small crisis averted.

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:29):

When somebody who has a narcissistic personality style walks into a

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:43:32):

Room,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:43:35):

They're casing the joint. How a thief or burglar walks into a place or drives by a place and they're looking for all the places they could get in, where could they get in? Where could they get caught? Where might the money be? That's what they're doing with you. They're casing the joint every time they meet you. What's the way in? Who's got the power in this room? Who do I need to sit next to? Who do I need to talk to? Where's the stuff they case, the joint? They walk into a cocktail party watching a narcissistic person walk into a party. I am an introvert, so I don't like parties. So when I go, I try to figure out who the narcissists are so I can watch 'em work

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:11):

For them. How do you spot them other than the kid with the Versace sweatsuit on and the stroller and the mom tapping on her phone.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:44:17):

They're the adult with the versa Versace sweatsuit who are sitting in a whatever the adult equivalent of a stroller is. They don't look at people, they look through them.

 

(00:44:28):

They have a remarkable capacity to able to look at you, but also be eyeing the door to see if someone more interesting is coming in or if there's someone else more interesting at the bar. It may not be that they're more attractive, it's just that they may bring something cooler, more hip cred, more validation, more supply. They're always working the room. You can always see the sort of sweet agreeable people who will, they'll have the long meandering, boring conversation committed to it, and then they might find the graceful exit or someone may puncture the conversation, but the narcissistic person will just go and go until they find the best. If you will target, listen, I live in LA so so often, especially before the pandemic, I think since the pandemic, my dance card's been less full. But before I'd go to parties where there'd be some people of some notoriety, the narcissistic people, when they'd see that fame me fame person walk in, it's a wonder they didn't trip trying to get over to them. They would just abruptly leave conversations and then they would just cleave themselves to the so-called famous, notorious, powerful Hollywood person. It was actually quite fun to watch. They're like heat seeking missiles. As soon as they found the power center of a group, that's where they're going to put their

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:46):

Focus. You've got new research in, it's not you. And one of the things that you write about are the four myths about narcissism. Can you unpack those for us?

Mel Robbins (00:46:19):

What is the malignant narcissist?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:46:20):

Malignant narcissism is actually the most severe form of narcissism. I always call it the last stop on the narcissism train before it veers into psychopathy station. It's where we see the dark tetra, where narcissism, machiavellianism or the willingness to exploit others, psychopathy and sadism all come together. And that's a lot of what we see in malignant narcissism. They're more coercive, they're more exploitative, they're more manipulative, they're more isolating. They don't tend to have the big, bright, shiny, grandiose

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:55):

Personalities. So is this when you get into severe emotional and physical abuse? Correct,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:47:00):

Yes. And it may not even be physical. It may just simply be severe, isolated coercively controlling kinds of financial abuse, emotional abuse, that kind of thing. It's more menacing. And I think that those kinds of qualities, again, tend not to be selected for in women. So we're going to see that more in men. But when we talk about communal narcissism, that sort of savior narcissism, this is where we see everything from new age folks to cult leaders, to people who think they're saving the world, and it's, well, people like saving the world. What do you mean they're rescuing puppies? How could that be bad? They're rescuing puppies though to get validation and admiration. They probably like the puppies well enough, but if nobody's recognizing all their puppy saving or they're environmental saving or whatever it is they're doing, they get angry. They have to be recognized as humanitarians. They not only put themselves out there as these great humanitarian saviors, they still treat the people they're closest to. Quite terribly great example of this would be the person you're a dad, pillar of the community. You're so lucky to be his kid in the little league, in the mayor, in the small town and behind closed doors is screaming at that family, humiliating them, shaming them. And yet the world says, your dad's a pillar of the community. That's a great example of communal narcissism.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:21):

So first myth that men are the narcissists,

Mel Robbins (00:48:25):

What's the next myth?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:48:26):

The second myth is that this is just bragging. It's just arrogance. It's just posturing. It's what we were talking about earlier. I think that somebody meets someone arrogant. They're like, oh, that's a narcissist. And I'll always say, slow down, sister. Let's spend a little bit more time. I'm digging in. I'm trying to find the entitlement. It's a little bit hard to find sometimes because might take a minute to unfurl. That's why even therapists, it takes us a minute before we could really say definitively someone has a narcissistic personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. Just become the person's arrogant. Just because a person's wearing designer labels, it doesn't mean they're narcissistic. So I say we have to be careful when it's sort of these forward kind of facing characteristics.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:05):

The grudge really hit me. And so did this distinction that you mentioned earlier between the difference between somebody being annoying versus somebody's behavior being harmful.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:49:14):

That's exactly right. And that's the piece where this is what concerns me about the ification of narcissism. Because what you're seeing there, and I've run into this over and over again, a lot of the folks out there who sometimes put out narcissism content were hurt by a narcissist. I'll give you a classical example. Somebody's boyfriend cheats on them. He's a narcissist. I'm like, he cheated on you, not okay, but I need more.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:40):

Right?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:49:40):

Okay. So I think that this idea that somebody cheats, that makes them a narcissist, do narcissists cheat more than other people? Absolutely. Absolutely. Is everyone who cheats a narcissist? No. So I think that when a person's hurt in one way, they want to make that leap. We even have to be careful there. So yes, and it's annoying. It is immature. We really latch onto the superficiality part of it. Just because somebody puts selfies on Instagram, it doesn't make them a narcissist. They could just be a sweetie. They just might just say, look, an autumn leaves tree, and this is me in front of it. And in some ways I look at those and I'm like, sweet. But I mean it little immature.

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:24):

I think what you're saying is really good. So now I feel terrible slamming the baby in the Versace thing, but I'm willing to take that bet, Mel, because there are multiple check boxes that's in that scenario in a certain age and behavior by parents, because I don't blame the child at all. And I also, in learning everything that I've learned in a weird way, the person that I'm closest to in my life that has a narcissistic personality style, I don't even blame her or I shouldn't say them, I don't even blame them because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences that stunts somebody's emotional growth. I don't even blame them because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences that stunts somebody's emotional growth.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:51:23):

And then this is where it gets the most tricky for survivors. Right? I hear you. And that's exactly what I know, and many of the people I've known who are narcissistic clients I've treated and all of that to still keep pinning it down to, and their behavior is not acceptable. Number one, you're not responsible for their history. Number two, if they are a sentient functional human being, they can take responsibility for their mental health. They have put you in the position of using you as a tool of regulation, pacifier and punching bag. That's not okay. They can take responsibility, but they will dine out for the rest of their life on the idea of I had a tough childhood, and they will these days more than ever, will commandeer the rough childhood explanation as the explanation for their behavior. This is why I'm saying we have to be careful.

 

(00:52:16):

While narcissism may be in part a trauma response, I'm going to push back on that a little, which is a person who had an adverse childhood and is having consistent trauma responses, for example, safety behaviors and all that, they tend to be consistent. The narcissistic person knows what they're doing. How do we know what they're doing? You've gone through this too. Think of the dinner party scenario. The dinner party. They're so charming. In fact, someone even ribs them makes a funny little joke at their expense and they laugh, ha ha, ha. You're thinking maybe I judge this person wrong. Maybe they're not narcissistic. You get in the car at the end of the night and they go off for the next hour. They knew what they were doing. They waited until they got in the car. That's not a lack of insight. They knew exactly what they were doing.

 

Mel Robbins (00:53:04):

There's another huge insight that's brand new for me. I think I've probably over-indexed on the, explain it away. Be empathetic, have sympathy while trying to remind myself I'm not responsible for,

Mel Robbins (00:53:59):

Wow.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:54:00):

The fourth Myth, and this is sort of the myth to rule all other myths, which is they can change. Everyone can change. Okay, so let's start with the simplest example. I'm going to put myself here on the shopping block. I am an agreeable introvert. That's Dr. Ramani's personality. No matter how bad a day it is, I'll roll up to the person at the airport, hi, how are you? Or, because I'm thinking, I don't know what day they just had. So I'll really say, you got to show up. You got to be warm and friendly, even if you're not feeling it, because kindness is good. My agreeableness has been there. You've asked my mother, she'll say, from the day you were born, you were the sweetest, easiest baby in the world, smiling in every picture. But I'm an introvert. If somebody says, Ramini, you'd be so much more successful.

 

(00:54:44):

If you're a bit more entitled, put yourself first. Could be a little bit more arrogant. Do it. My team sometimes is like, come on, you got to put yourself out there. And when I do, I feel sick. I can't do it. The times I'd be like, I need to be first. I'm like, no, I don't. Can't do it. But if let's say somebody even said, just go out there. Be more entitled, be more grandiose, be more arrogant, be all these things. Stop having all this empathy stop. What is the likelihood I could do that zero and be the life of the party? Zero. Okay. So if I can't make those changes, why would the narcissist and my personality's less rigid than theirs? If I can't become a disagreeable extrovert tomorrow, why would the narcissistic person become a big huggy, empathic, unentitled, open, vulnerable person? I can't do it. Neither can they. And they're less likely to do it because their personality is more rigid. Wow.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:40):

I mean that makes all the sense in the world.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:55:41):

Yeah. So we are actually asking something unreasonable of the narcissistic people when we think that they can change, and when you throw in there, they're less likely to go to therapy, and when they start going to therapy, they're 60% more likely to drop out of therapy. When is this change actually going to happen?

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:58):

Is that the reason why we don't know how many narcissists there are? Because they don't go to therapy.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:56:02):

Not only do they not go to therapy, a lot of the research, Mel focuses on measuring how many people have narcissistic personality disorder and that you're going to see rates of one to 6% versus a style, but versus the personality style where we're never going to get those numbers. People said, come on, spitball a number. If I were to spitball a number 20%, one in five, 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:56:23):

Enough narcissism to cause problems in relationships. Yeah. Do they have NPD? I have no idea, but one in five people I think has enough narcissism to cause a problem. I think if you go to major metropolitan areas, it's going to be worse. I think in certain industries, it's going to be far worse. Finance, law, politics, media, celebrity, much, much worse. Wow.

 

Mel Robbins (00:56:46):

There are five different patterns that narcissists

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:56:49):

Have

 

Mel Robbins (00:56:50):

That you write about in your new book. It's not you.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:56:52):

Yeah, so Dimmer is an acronym I use to sort of help not only people who are going through these relationships, but clinicians organize the pattern, the dimmer patterns, and I use the term dimmers because it really turns down our light and narcissistic people are dismissive, invalidating, manipulative, minimizing, but also gaslighting is in that manipulation. They're entitled and they're rageful and all of those patterns, the dismissiveness, the invalidation, the minimization, the manipulation, they turn off our light because the only way we can then survive in a relationship with a narcissist if we don't know what it is. The only way we can survive is by giving in, which means subjugating ourselves to them pretty much living in their service. Because when you do that, the narcissist views us like I view this cup right now. I love this cup because it's holding the water I need. I'm fond of the cup thank you cup, and that's even a stretch to thank the cup. When this is over, I'm going to throw this cup out because I have no more use for this cup. That's how a narcissist views a person.

 

Mel Robbins (00:58:01):

What I find fascinating about that is that you constantly think about the narcissist in your life

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:58:08):

All the time,

 

Mel Robbins (00:58:09):

But they don't think about you.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (00:58:10):

No, unless they need you, and then they think about you a lot. So you like this cup, I'm thinking about this cup. Now I'm about to take a drink out of it. They're not thinking about you unless you serve a function or unless they think they're going to lose you. The one thing we forget about narcissistic folks is they don't like abandonment because it is a loss of control. There's an argument that narcissistic folks also have attachment issues. They either have anxious attachments, avoidant attachments, or a mix of both, but definitely insecure attachments. So the idea that their source of supply could get up and leave, and that's not what they want, means that they've lost control of the narrative and they will punish that person for doing that. Another one that you write about is domination. Domination patterns are classical and narcissistic relationships because the function of a relationship for a narcissistic person is really to give them a place of power, domination, and control, and it's the only way they can function in a relationship.

 

(00:59:10):

So as a result, all narcissistic relationships are asymmetric. There will never be balance and equity in a narcissistic relationship. They have to have more power. So that's why, for example, in an intimate relationship, a narcissistic person will often want to have more money, and if their partner has more money, that's not going to work for them. I remember working with a client where there's a woman and then she had a very narcissistic partner. She made the money. She's incredibly successful. What she did, and he was absolute textbook malignant narcissist, and he would cut her down constantly cheated on her all the time, anything to make her feel smaller and smaller and smaller. Then one day he got into a new line of work and his career really skyrocketed. Then the balance switched. He was now making more money, and money is a very, very powerful source of supply for narcissistic people because then our culture is one of the fastest routes to power you can get.

 

(01:00:06):

So then he continued doing all the abusive things, but now he was much more secure in the relationship and strangely he started behaving a little better, whatever, better is. But you see the same thing in families too, right? It's all about power, domination, and control, and it doesn't have to be the patriarch of the matriarch. It could literally be a sibling who is the one who is exerting that kind of power, domination, and control. And so the power isn't always where you'd think, and obviously when you have a narcissistic father, for example, can really, really be painful for everyone involved because that person's already more societally powered just by being a man in charge of a family. But that's a central, central motivation. I think what happens for a lot of folks who fall in love with a narcissistic person is they believe you both want the same thing. We're in love, we're doing love things. I'm like, no, no, no, no. You're in love. They're in power. Understand the difference.

 

Mel Robbins (01:01:01):

Whoa, that's a big one. You're in love. They're in power. Understand the difference that leads right into love bombing. What is love bombing?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:01:14):

Okay, so love bombing is a strategic approach. A narcissistic person takes at the beginning of a relationship to win a person over and secure them as a source of supply in the most classical, grandiose form of love bombing. It's a relationship that feels like a fairytale. It's dinners out, it's love text. Good morning, my angel. Goodnight, my princess. How's my queen this morning? That stuff is narcissism central. This is the greatest love story ever told. Where have you been my whole life on Instagram? Found my soulmate, soulmate, narcissist. I see her hear soulmate, and I'm like, someone's in a narcissistic relationship. You know how it's like every time a bell rings, an angel gets their wings.

(01:02:55):

And if that's your thing, then they are the ultimate. They're like a fixer upper of a human being. So you're like, no, no, no. I know a guy. I'm going to introduce you to this guy. Oh, well, your car's not working. Oh, please take mine. No problem. Or I got you. We are going to make your dreams come true. That is crack for a vulnerable, narcissistic person. So it can be this rather vulnerable opening up, and that's how their love bombing shows up. But the mistake people make is we only think of love bombing in a romantic way. Love bombing can happen in families and when a family member needs something for you. Now listen, your family, your parents didn't love bombing. It was built into the model. You're like you had to love 'em. You had no choice. But as time goes on, narcissistic parents will do the equivalent of love bombing.

 

(01:03:44):

They need the kid to be what they want. Hey honey, you're the best. Oh my gosh, you're doing so great. You're going to go out. You're going to win that game. It is pizza. It is ice cream. You want to go to Disneyland, you want to go? I'll take you to Disneyland. So it's the parent throws the little goodies in there to get the kid in line, sometimes even to be a source of supply for them. And as you get into adulthood with a narcissistic parent or narcissistic family member, they will do that same sort of, you are the best. Here's all this stuff. We'll do anything you want to be able to keep you maybe sometimes just on the narcissistic supply chain of the family.

 

Mel Robbins (01:04:21):

I do have one question about the love bombing. I saw this happen with somebody that I care deeply about the like, you're my queen. I love you, angel. And the problem is when that happens to you as a human, you literally do think you found Prince charming or you found the one and all of your chemicals in your body are going bananas. Yes, they are because you are attracted to this person. And what do you do?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:04:48):

You ask such an important question because the other thing that happens in love bombing is that the person, the narcissistic person tries to push the accelerator on the relationship. They want it to go fast if they want to lock down your supply. And remember, the narcissistic person uses a relationship not only to get supply and one of a key form of supply status.

 

Mel Robbins (01:05:08):

What do you mean by supply?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:05:09):

You use that word a lot. Supply is the admiration. You bring a person, the validation, you bring a person. It could be your attractiveness, it could be money, it could be social status, it could be sex, it could be time, it could be novelty. Remember, the reason love bombing works is that it's new not only for you, but for them.

 

(01:05:28):

Narcissistic people are reward seekers, but they don't care as much about punishment. So they don't think about consequences. They think about reward. There are biological theories of narcissism that suggest like the nucleus accumbens, those areas of the brain that are very sort of dopamine, happy parts of the brain that reward sensitivity that has been shown in the research to be very much the case that they don't think about the punishment, the thing down the road, they think about the thing that feels good in front of them, but they are trying to lock down the supply. So if you're a good source of supply, you praise them a lot. You're so hot, you're so cool, you're so great. Let's go Instagram official. Anything that's bringing them what they want as attention,

 

Mel Robbins (01:06:10):

Right? I know, but as a 55-year-old woman, I see it happening with so many 20 something. I'm like, you did not meet the love of your life. You are not marrying this person right now. Mel, calm your fricking jets,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:06:24):

Mel, I'm going to call you out on that.

 

Mel Robbins (01:06:26):

Keep your IUD in. Here's the thing, let's not lock this sucker down. You are an irrational insecure, obviously I can't say this to somebody,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:06:38):

But I'm going to call you out on that. Let's not just be being to the 20 year olds. I am watching 55-year-old

 

Mel Robbins (01:06:44):

Fall for this. Oh, I'm sure. Because if you're newly out of a marriage or you've been single forever and somebody suddenly comes out of the blue, I understand we all want attention and to feel good, but how do you discern, I guess because a normal person doesn't go, you're my queen. 10 seconds after they meet you.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:07:07):

That thing is a narcissist is too clever to say, you're my queen. 10 seconds.

 

Mel Robbins (01:07:12):

It's like the date that goes for 48 hours.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:07:13):

That's exactly right. It's the date that goes on for 48 hours. It's they say goodnight. And think of it, let's say somebody's been dating a bunch of people who aren't responsive, who wait three days to text and all that, which narcissist can do as well, but a really full court press love bomber. They'll send that. Are you home, baby? Can't stop thinking about you, ding. And then in the morning, good morning, queen. I just dreamt about you, ding, middle of the day. But the really good love bombers, they don't go crazy. It's not every hour, maybe around lunchtime like, Hey, I hope your day is going well. And then they might even wait a minute, they're still not the second day.

 

Mel Robbins (01:07:53):

They're very, very s. So what would happen? Let's just say that somebody hears you and they're taking everything that you're saying to heart, and a couple months from now you get in a new relationship. You go on this absolutely fabulous date, right? The next morning, angel, I hope you slept well. I dreamt about you all. I'm like, literally.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:08:55):

Bombing. Have you ever been on vacation A place like Hawaii or some other tropical island? Not Hawaii, but somewhere else. Yes, some other tropical island because you've been on a vacation like that, right? Did you move there? No. You came home. Yeah, would've been nice to stay there. Umbrella drinks days in the sun, reading the book, right? Telling people to interrupt. The love bombing is telling people, you just got to Maui. Come home, stay in Maui for a week, have some fun. But as soon as I kind of miss my cat, my dog, I kind of miss my bed. Come back, ride the love bomb out, have some fun. You want to test it. The things you'll see early on are things like the narcissistic person doesn't tolerate disappointment. Well, if anything pings their entitlement, for example, they don't get the table they want. There is a weight at the restaurant. They did lose the reservation. The bags get lost and they get really, really crunchy and entitled. You just got your first sign and catch yourself in the excuse. Well, we did just have an overnight flight to not okay to yell at somebody for not finding the back. All right,

 

(01:10:07):

You've now gotten your first piece of data. One of the most interesting things I remember learning in graduate school was supervisor told me I was learning to be a therapist. He said to me, the first time something happens, it happens. The second time something happens, it's a coincidence. The third time it happens, it's a pattern. So take the first time is what it is called. The second time a coincidence. By the time the third time comes, it's time to leave Maui, pack those bags and come home. Because I, as a psychologist can tell you, it's impossible for me to tell someone to leave something that feels that good.

 

(01:10:42):

The key is that when you're getting good morning, queen soulmate nonsense to recognize this for the tropical vacation that it is, and to remind yourself that this is going to run out. I am going to need to go back to real life again. And when that rule of threes hits and say, yeah, no, this isn't cool, this isn't okay, but that is a really, really tough nut to crack because what the love bombing does, and this is why it's such a useful tactic, it creates buy-in because what has happened is you've now created the idealized foundation of a relationship. And maybe that's the thing is that idealization really has no place in a relationship is that we are trying to fall in love with the whole person.

Mel Robbins (01:12:27):

It's true

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:12:28):

In any world where there's lots of romance is where the narcissists are going to win. So I guess I'm telling, I think we're around Valentine's Day now. I'm saying say goodbye to the romance, buy the chocolates the day after Valentine's are 50% off, and stop playing into this game ahead of time. But you're in a relationship with someone. Some of the devaluing has started. They're being a little shady with someone. Shady dms, shady texts, shady behavior, lying about where they are lying about where they are

 

Mel Robbins (01:12:56):

Disappearing for a while.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:12:57):

Yeah, disappearing for a while. You call them out and some gaslighting, some denial. You've got some evidence they don't want to lose. You love bomb two. So the second love bombs are usually for them to restabilize the ship and to get the validation and to get again, your supply back the way they want it. But the thing is, you'll also have these cycles where they will behave badly and then they'll behave well. They'll have a good day at work, they'll be really nice. They'll say, let's go out to dinner. And then two days later, they are gaslighting you and chatting you and humiliating. You

 

Mel Robbins (01:13:31):

See, now I'm back to going, I think I'm a narcissist. You know what I mean? I listen to you and I'm like, okay, I have a good day at work, then I have a bad day at work.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:13:38):

But how do you treat other people? You mean to the per people my life? But that's my point. Listen, on our good days, we're always a little nicer. I just had this conversation with someone this morning because I had a terrible night last night, five hours of work, hell last night, and I was in the worst mood. Talked to one of my best friends that night and I said, I am about to be a terrible person to you. I love you so much. And she's like, I got you. Go. So it wasn't like I went in there and I wasn't trying to hurt her, but I knew the things I was going to say. Were going to be abrupt and icky. I had self-reflection. She's a good friend. She's like, all good. You never need to give me a disclaimer. I love you. And then we had the conversation this morning. I had such a terrible day. It lingered into the morning, and I was talking to someone and I said to him, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, I'm so sorry. You're on a trip. I don't want to harm your trip. He's like, no, no, no. I get it. And I said, and now I have to jump abruptly. I've got to go. I've got to get to mouth, and now

 

Mel Robbins (01:14:32):

I feel bad that you're

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:14:32):

Here after having such a bad day. No, you lifted my, oh, I'm sorry, but you see these dances where're in like, oh, I'm so sorry you did that. I'm like, oh, sorry. To my friend and to this other person I was talking to. So that awareness that we say, I am so sorry ahead of time. I don't want to say anything that hurts, but I am not in my best right now. I'm showing an awareness that other person is prepared. I might even say, I'm so sorry. All I did was talk about myself. This conversation. I just had to let this go. There is an awareness now, next time I talk to these people, I'm going to call them both this evening and say, how are you doing? I hammered on about myself that a narcissistic person's not going to do that. Do you see the difference? I see the difference. I have the good day. I have the bad day. You have the good day. You have the bad day. You have the self-reflection on the bad day. Do not scream at people who might say, I'm not going to be my best tonight or tonight's a pizza night, or could I have an hour to myself?

 

Mel Robbins (01:15:23):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love this concept in your book. It's not you of the C-suite as being the gateway to love bombing. Yes. Can you explain what that is?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:15:34):

Yes. So here we're talking about narcissistic relationships and how terrible they are and how it could be whether, especially in an intimate relationship, but in any relationship, you're thinking, well, why are we running away as soon as we see them yelling at the server? Because everybody's vulnerable to these relationships and this idea that are there some people more vulnerable than others? No. And that's the C-suite. Why are we all vulnerable to them? Because they are charming, they're charismatic, they are confident, they are curious about us. They have great credentials. And in a weird way, especially if we had narcissistic parents and we meet a narcissistic person in adulthood, they're even a weird source of comfort because it's our chance number two, to win over the person who is not fully loving us. I know this game. I'm going to be fabulous and I'm going to make them love me. That's how love works, right? I'm going to earn it from them. If someone just rolls up and loves you, you're like, that's boring, right? That's the thing. You push back, you get, but that especially the charisma, the confidence, the charm. I mean, it is an odd thing to tell people when someone charismatic. Why isn't there all the time though what? I mean,

 

Mel Robbins (01:16:50):

This is the thing that's so damn

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:16:51):

Confusing. It's a transaction. It's a transaction. They're trying to get your supply. They know. Again, it's that conscious knowing how to turn it on and turn it off. Any of us, I mean, you must know, Mel, you said narcissistic people tell me they were not some of the most charming, charismatic, shiny, sparkly people you've ever known.

 

Mel Robbins (01:17:09):

I think there are two enormous takeaways that I have from this conversation so far. Number one, that there is a difference between their behavior and it being acceptable. You said this thing earlier that made me go, holy cow. You're absolutely right. Their behavior is what their behavior is, and that is completely separate from whether or not it's appropriate.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:17:41):

Correct. Regardless of their backstory.

 

Mel Robbins (01:17:43):

Regardless of their backstory. And that's an enormous piece of it that I think I have explained away. So much of the bad behavior and the kind of broken dynamic because of the backstory and the overextension of empathy and consideration has put me in a position where I have tolerated the behavior. I have made excuses for the behavior. I have felt bad for the person when the tantrums or the grudges or the this or the that, I tune it out and I have not given myself the permission to say, Hey, you are who you are, but how you're behaving around me is not appropriate. The second thing that has been an enormous eyeopener, because I always fixated on the fact that somebody is not necessarily born this way that's made in childhood. It's a personality style. It is like concrete. You're not going to change it. But when you started explaining how selective somebody is, how they turn it off and on, how they target you versus a sibling or they target a certain situation versus another situation, you're a thousand percent right, that there is this complete conscious direction of when I'm going to explode, when I'm not going to explode, who I'm going to gripe to, who I'm not going to gripe to. And that is so empowering to me because it allows me to really step into that truth. It's still not appropriate. It doesn't matter what the hell happened to you. That allows me to understand what's going on. It doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:19:31):

And I think that, again, I'm so glad you honed in on those two things because what I think people are often they're asking a question and kind of asking the wrong question, and we sometimes give them the wrong answer, which is does the narcissistic person know why they are the way they are? To which I'm going to say not really, and it doesn't matter. But I think the thing is that people want to say, maybe they can't help it. I'm telling you, obviously they can. And if they couldn't, Mel, they'd never be as successful as they are. Or they'd be screaming in shareholder meetings, they'd be screaming at everyone. Sometimes they do, but they tend to scream at what they consider low value targets. People they view as disposable. It's pretty rare for them to

 

Mel Robbins (01:20:15):

Scream at other people. That is disgusting. It's disgusting if you really think about it, if you really get out of the victimhood mindset, like Why is this happening to me? And you embrace what you're saying, which is the reason why they target you and not your sister is because they view you as the low value target. That's exactly right. Target. They can get what they want out of you, which is the supply of your attention and stepping on your face in order to feel

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:20:37):

Better and you're going to come back around.

 

Mel Robbins (01:20:39):

Yeah, because you always do. So Dr. Ramani, I remember at one point you saying after decades of being in a clinical practice, being a professor, researching, writing, bestselling books, that you have had many narcissists in your practice. Is it possible in your clinical experience for a narcissist to actually change?

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:21:09):

Okay, I wish I could say yes or no, not enough to make a difference in the health of the important relationships in their life. Micro changes that might affect how they go through the world with less important people. They may learn their pleases and thank yous. They may learn to show up on time. They may regulate their anger a little bit better. They may not flip off the person who cuts them off in traffic. Okay, are they going to be present, empathic, mindful, and self-aware? I haven't seen that happen. One of those old emails I'd get from former clients was a person, person who was in a long-term relationship with a malignant narcissist. When that person terminated therapy with me many years ago, the person said to me, I have to end therapy with you because you see the truth of my relationship and I'm not leaving.

 

(01:22:15):

It's unfortunate that this person did leave therapy because most 50% of people stay in these relationships. It's not unusual, and I get it, and there's no judgment. And this person said, just I feel ashamed that I'm staying in this. And this person happened to choose to stay because they had a very well-resourced lifestyle that was a very restrictive prenup. And the person said, I don't think I can give up this lifestyle. I am really looking at a one bedroom apartment for the rest of my days had left the workplace for too long. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to make it work. By happenstance, a few years after the client terminated, I happened to be in a large event where the person was with the spouse. As therapists we ever rule, we are not to ever acknowledge a client in public unless they acknowledge us and then rather perfunctorily to preserve their confidentiality.

 

(01:23:03):

So when I saw this person was there, I of put myself on the other side of the room, but I watched and it was, I could see this person trying to make a horse race of it with the spouse. Five years after that, the client emailed me and said, nothing ever changed. It remained the same way, and at the end of it, it ended up really destroying our child's mental health. And I can't say that there was any self-satisfaction at that email. What broke my heart is that as a clinician, you can see what's coming, especially for the children. You could see what a hard road it would be for a person like this. But that's not the only email I've ever gotten like that. And that when people would leave and they'd say, I'm going to try, I'm going to try. The trying and thinking it's going to get better, is where a heart gets broken. But this person laid it out. The thing we know, it doesn't get better. And sadly, what ends up happening is there's more collateral damage like children and other people close to you. The best I could do at that point was give that person a referral and wish them well. But for that one story, there's millions more.

 

Mel Robbins (01:24:20):

So one of the other big takeaways today for me is that one of the reasons why somebody that has a narcissistic personality style is not going to change is because you are basically disposable. You don't matter enough to them to have them put change ahead of themselves,

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:24:45):

To put change, and to again, remember to really create change. Mel, a person has to be willing to be attuned to their own vulnerability. That idea, there's no authenticity, and narcissism never belong in the same sentence because it doesn't happen. So to be self-aware, to be self-reflective is to connect to our vulnerability, and now we're back to the psychological diarrhea. So that constant sense of threat, it is, yes, not only are other people disposable, they have to be disposable because Mel, if other people aren't disposable, then they have too much power, and that's the challenge.

 

Mel Robbins (01:25:20):

Where I want to go next is to the title of your book. It's Not You because if 50% of people stay in relationships, whether it's with a parent or a partner, or they're not leaving, or even if they leave, there is a massive level of wiring and trauma and abuse that you've sustained, that you have tools, you have all kinds of resources that you're going to share in the next part of our conversation.

 

Dr. Ramani Durvasula (01:25:51):

Thank you so much. This new book is not about the narcissist this time. It's about healing. As I put it, it's the tail of the hunt told by the lion and not the hunter. It's time to talk about healing,

 

Mel Robbins (01:26:05):

And I can't wait to dig into that too. But before we do that, I want to make sure before we end, in case nobody else tells you, let me be the first person to say today that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I know based on everything that you've learned today, you feel empowered to do that in your relationships already. I'll see you in a couple days and thank you so much to you for being here on YouTube with me. I love, love, love being here with you every single day with new videos. Please hit subscribe. Please share this episode with people that it can help. And I know you want to watch something that's going to help you create a better life. Here are the steps that you need to create a better life.