Episode: 165
How to Build the Life You Want: Timeless Wisdom for More Happiness & Purpose
with Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, PhD
Do you want to be happier every day and live a more meaningful life?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, who taught two of Harvard’s most popular courses ever, shares groundbreaking research on happiness.
Learn:
- What you have wrong about happiness
- The science-based tools for increasing happiness
- 5 simple habits for a successful, happy life
- And more
Listen on:
Happiness is not a goal. It’s a byproduct of taking care of yourself, your relationships, and your wellbeing.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, PhD
Featured Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:00:10):
I am Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. What was that? The camera just stopped and then yeah, I heard that. Why? I don't know. I don't know either. He's also the New York Times bestselling author of eight. Yep, you heard it. Eight incredible books, all about happiness, many of which are required reading in university course. So
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:00:34):
That's the first thing that I learned. Now think that I what?
Mel Robbins (00:00:40):
Maybe we should put an iPhone right there just in case so we can keep going.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:00:44):
Paradoxically actually needs two more happiness.
Mel Robbins (00:00:57):
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and thank you so much for spending some time with me today. And I also want to thank you for making the decision to listen to something that could help you improve your life. I think that's pretty cool. Now, if you're new, I want to welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. And by the way, thank you for making this one of the most popular podcasts in the entire world. My name's Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. And I'm on a mission to inspire and empower you with the tools and export resources that you need to create a better life. And you want to know a very important component of creating a better life that's happiness. And I know that this is a topic that you love hearing about.
(00:01:39):
In fact, every single time that you and I talk about it together, you want more. And today I'm going to introduce you to somebody I deeply admire. He's one of the world's leading experts on happiness. His name Dr. Tall Ben Shahar. And that name, I bet you're like, wait a minute, I think I've heard that name before. Well, let me tell you where you may have heard it because we did an episode just a little bit ago on the science of goals, and I'll link to that in the resources. I will link to everything we talk about in the resources. And at the very end of that episode, I shared some powerful research from none other than Dr. Tall Ben Shahar. Remember that it was the research about the Olympic medalists and how they felt happier as they were training for the Olympics when they were pursuing that dream way happier when they were pursuing it than when they actually won the medal.
(00:02:33):
And that part of the episode about goals and how goals are critical to happiness because your goals represent the pursuit of something that matters to you. You love that? So you know what I did? I begged Tall to join us today, and he is here. He's here to unpack his research and share very specific takeaways with you. Now, Tao is very well known for being Harvard University's most popular teacher like ever. He taught two of the most popular courses in Harvard's history, positive psychology and the psychology of leadership. And today you are getting key takeaways. He's also the New York Times bestselling author of eight. Yep, you heard it. Eight incredible books all about happiness. And you know what I love about Tal? Even though I've only just met him in real life, I've been studying his work forever. But what I love about him is that he has this amazing ability to bridge the academic aspect of happiness with the insights that you need to apply it to your life. And today, Tal is sharing the five elements of happiness. So let's jump in. Tal, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:03:43):
Thank you Mel. So good to be here.
Mel Robbins (00:03:45):
I am so excited to talk to you. I want to just start with the beginning of your story because here you are one of the world's leading experts on the topic of happiness, something we all want to know more about. But when you got to college, you thought you were going to study computer science. So what happened in your life that created this big pivot?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:04:07):
So I became interested in happiness because of my own unhappiness.
(00:04:12):
And it started off even before college. I was a squash player. My dream as a young boy was to be a professional athlete. Initially it was supposed to be basketball, but I stopped growing at about the age of five, six. So that didn't happen. But squash was it for me. And I wasn't happy as a child, but I would always tell myself when I become a professional, when I win the national championship, then I'll be happy. And for years I was quite miserable and then I won the national championship and I was not just happy. I was ecstatic for about four hours and then again going back to where I was before the same stress and unhappiness and I thought something was wrong here with my model. But then I said, oh no, it's when I become a world champion, then I'll be happy. And I continued towards that and I played professionally for a few years and then I got injured and I went to college and I said, okay, so I didn't make it in athletics, but I'll do it academically.
(00:05:24):
And I went to Harvard and I was a top student there and I was miserable. And my sophomore year, very cold Boston morning, I went to my academic advisor and I told her that I'm switching majors. I was a computer science major. And she said what too? And I said, well, I'm leaving computer science and moving over to philosophy and psychology. And she said, why? And I said, because I have two questions. First, why aren't I happy? Second, how can I become happier? And it's with these two questions that I then went on to get my undergraduate degree, then went to graduate school in education and organizational behavior all the time asking how can I help myself, individuals, couples, organizations, and ultimately nations increase their levels of happiness? And there was 30 years ago,
Mel Robbins (00:06:14):
Wow, that's quite, you sound like a really intense dude. No, seriously, you sound like somebody that was incredibly tightly wound, but that's not my experience of you right now. And so I only say that because to me, if somebody that is that driven and that competitive and that tightly wound can figure out first of all why you're not happy, and also then figure out how to become a happier person and then translate that to everybody else, that's cool because that means the rest of us can probably do it too.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:06:52):
There's no question on my mind. Again, after 30 years of work, internal work, external work research, that there is a lot that we can do to become happier.
Mel Robbins (00:07:02):
So if you go back to that sophomore, you at Harvard and you're sitting there with your academic advisor and your advisor says, wait, what? You're going to switch? Why would you switch? And you say, because I want to figure out why I'm so unhappy. What did you learn about why you were so unhappy that we might be able to apply to our own lives?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:07:25):
So the first thing that I learned or that was obvious to me at that time was that success doesn't lead to happiness. We think there are certain boxes that we need to check. So for me, it was winning that championship or later getting into Harvard or becoming a top student or getting a good job and making a lot of money. And we know, all of us know that the best that these achievements can do is lead to temporary happiness, a spike, but that high doesn't last. So that's the first thing that I learned. Now the thing that amazed me is that while we all know that achievement attainment reaching a goal will not lead to lasting happiness, we continue to live as if it will.
Mel Robbins (00:08:08):
Why wouldn't it make you happy to achieve something that you've worked really hard to get?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:08:14):
Because our system is built for the pursuit, not for the outcome. So once there is the outcome, there is sort of like, okay, check, been there, done that. Now I need something else. And that's part of our nature. And you may say it's terrible, it's awful. Why is it that it just is. Why is the law of gravity, the law of gravity? And the question is, how do we accept nature just like we accept the law of gravity, how do we accept our human nature and then build our life based on that?
Mel Robbins (00:08:47):
So if I am hearing you correctly, what you are saying is that one of the biggest things that somebody take away from this conversation with you is that you are not hardwired to feel happy simply because you've achieved something. That happiness is tied to pursuing it, not the achieving of it.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:09:08):
Yes. And if you do live by the belief that achievement will lead to happiness, that will cause you a great deal of unhappiness. Oh, that's a big one. In fact, that is one of the main causes for the levels of unhappiness that we see in our world because people are focusing on the wrong thing. They're climbing up the wrong mountain.
Mel Robbins (00:09:33):
So can you break that down for us? I want to just stay on this point and highlight it because if thinking about happiness wrong creates unhappiness, explain to us how you want us to think about happiness.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:09:55):
So happiness is important. It matters just like we are hardwired not to celebrate successes forever. We're also hardwired to pursue happiness. So it's not that I'm saying, okay, forget about happiness. Happiness matters. However, there's also research, and this is research done quite recently by a professor Moss, MAUS, showing that if I wake up in the morning and say to myself, I want to be happy or happiness is important for me, or it's a value for me, I will actually become less happy.
Mel Robbins (00:10:31):
What? Wait a minute,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:10:34):
Really that was exactly my reaction. That's a problem. And I read about this five years ago and I said, but that's what I'm dedicating my life to. Of course happiness is important for me. And yet what the research clearly shows is that this will make you less happy. So does this mean we should kid ourselves say to ourselves, I don't want to be happy, wink wink, I actually do. Self-deception is certainly not the path to happiness. So what do we do about it? Well, let me use an analogy that was very helpful for me in thinking about happiness. Imagine you go outside, it's a beautiful sunny day
(00:11:14):
And you want to enjoy the sun. So you look up at the sun directly, what happens? You hurt yourself, it burns, it hurts. You tear up looking at the sun directly hurts. However, what if you take a prism and you break the sunlight and then you look at what has just been broken. In other words, the colors of the rainbow. Then you can look at the sunlight and enjoy it, but you're looking at it indirectly. It's the same with happiness. Pursuing it directly and saying, I want to be happy. Happiness is important for me, that will make us unhappy. But if I break down happiness into its metaphorical colors of the rainbow and then pursue it indirectly, that is when I can actually become happier.
Mel Robbins (00:12:03):
Okay, so I'm going to see if I can understand this because you are saying, I totally get the part that if you focus at something maniacally, right, you're going to get the sunspots. You cannot hold that intent gaze at something even if you want to. But when the sunlight hits a prism and it casts a rainbow, you are saying that the rainbow is the way that you indirectly enjoy the sun. I have so many questions. The first one I have is what is the definition of happiness?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:12:34):
There are five elements to happiness. There may be more, but five main elements to happiness, which we call the spire.
Mel Robbins (00:12:44):
The spire.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:12:45):
S-P-I-R-E-S stands for spiritual wellbeing. Spiritual wellbeing is about, of course we can attain it through religion, but we can also find it through doing something that is meaningful to us, purposeful by being, mindful by being present. We experience the spiritual. That's one of the colors of the rainbow. So if I wake up in the morning and say I want to be happy, I'll be less happy. But if I wake up in the morning and say, I want to find something which is more meaningful to do, or I'm going to meditate for 10 minutes now that is an indirect way of pursuing happiness.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:13:22):
Happiness. That's one of the colors. So that's the S of spire. The P of spire, that's physical wellbeing. Physical wellbeing is about nutrition, it's about rest and recovery. Sleep, it's about touch. It's about what we eat. That of course matters. So if I start to exercise regularly, that's an indirect way of pursuing happiness.
(00:13:49):
If I eat more healthfully the same, then we have the eye of spire. I stands for intellectual wellbeing. That's about curiosity, about asking questions about constantly learning about deep diving, whether it's into a text or a work of art or nature. And these are again, all indirect ways of pursuing happiness. The fourth color of the rainbow, the R of Spire, relational wellbeing, number one, predictor of happiness, quality time we spend with people we care about and who care about us. So if I spend more time with my loved ones indirectly pursuing happiness. And finally the E of Spire, emotional wellbeing. Emotional wellbeing is first of all about giving ourselves the permission to be human. In other words, allowing the embracing painful emotions that are natural parts of any life, even a happy life, sadness, anger, frustration, allowing these emotions to freely flow through us, paradoxically actually leads to more happiness. So these five elements of happiness, spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional wellbeing are the metaphorical colors of the rainbow. And when we pursue them, we are actually pursuing happiness indirectly and becoming
Mel Robbins (00:15:13):
Happier. As you were describing all five elements, you did keep saying the word wellbeing. And what I wonder as I'm listening because it makes a lot of sense that all of these components go into a whole look at how to elevate or experience happiness in your life. What do I got to achieve next to feel that thing that I want to feel? How would you begin to explain to somebody like that what this actually means and how you pursue it if you don't even know what happiness kind of feels like? You got the wrong definition.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:15:55):
So the first thing that I would do is I would take a step back and explore models of happiness. Because if you think about it, in our culture today, we have two major models of happiness. The one model of happiness, which is mostly associated with the west, is you become happier by achieving your goals. That's the most important thing. You get to the peak of the mountain, then you'll be happy. That's a model that I tried and that many people tried. It doesn't really work. The other model that people veer towards is, okay, so the future doesn't get us happiness. Let's focus on the now. Let's just be in the present moment.
Mel Robbins (00:16:36):
Yes,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:16:37):
And that's an alternative model, which is mostly, again, this is very broad brush strokes, mostly associated with the east
(00:16:45):
Meditation, mindfulness being the here and now. There are problems with both models. We know what the problem is with the future oriented model, but there's also a problem with the present oriented model. And that is human nature again, because we do want goals. We are ambitious, we do want to achieve things. And whether you are living here or in Vietnam, and the question is, can these two models be reconciled? In other words, can you draw the best of both worlds? And the answer is yes. Goals matter. They're important. Whether it is to win a championship in sports or whether it is to get into a college or whether it is to make X amount of money, goals matter. We care about them.
Mel Robbins (00:17:33):
Why do they matter in the context of happiness?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:17:35):
Well, they matter because again, it's part of our nature. We want to improve, we want to get better. And that's a beautiful and wonderful part of our nature which we ought to celebrate, not attack. So that's a good thing. However, what we also know is that the achievement of these goals will not make us happy. What will make us happy? Not the achievement of these goals, but the existence of these goals, whether or not I achieve them, is actually less important to have them matters. Why does it matter? Because think about it. You go on a road trip and you have no idea where you're going. So you turn left or right, you look over my falling over a cliff, what should I do today? Is this the right thing?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:18:21):
You are meandering, you're not certain, you're not happy then. But if you know I'm going to the top of that mountain over there, then you can go there with full energy, with motivation, especially if that mountain top is meaningful to you, which is an important component of a goal, of course. So you have a meaningful goal, you're going towards it. And what does having that goal do? What it does for you is it liberates you to enjoy the here and now
Mel Robbins (00:18:54):
That makes a lot of sense. Actually,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:18:56):
The two of them are reconciled
Mel Robbins (00:18:59):
Because it gives your day to day life a sense of purpose and direction. And I can see how if you wake up in the morning and you're either just going through the motions or you wake up in the morning and you're not quite sure what to do with your time because you're not quite sure what you want, how that lack of purpose then starts to probably make you think too much and probably make you start to dwell on questions like, am I happy? Am I not happy? What should I be doing? I don't know. Am I lost? Am I stuck? I mean, I've certainly been in those areas of my life. And so you're absolutely right about that. I see what you're saying.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:19:42):
And then what that means is that that future goal is not an end, but rather a means. It's a means towards liberating you to enjoy the here and now.
Mel Robbins (00:19:53):
Tal, thank you for explaining that. And this is a great moment to remind you as you're listening that the episode that we did on the science of setting deeply personal goals, we're going to link to that in the resources. It also is the episode that features some of towel's research on goal setting that's there for you. I want to hear a quick word from our sponsors who are bringing us this amazing, amazing information about happiness at zero cost. Do not go anywhere. You're going to be happy you stuck around because when we come back, I'm going to ask t to walk you and I step-by-step through all five elements of happiness and give us a specific example of a simple action you could take in each area that will make you feel happier today. Stay with me. Hey, it's Mel. I see you showing up here all the time on YouTube and I love inspiring you.
(00:20:47):
But just imagine what would happen if for the next six months you took everything that you've been learning here on YouTube with me and you put it into action in your life. Let me help you do it. Let me give you the structure, the accountability, and the support that you deserve. I want you in my six month exclusive coaching program called Launch. Registration is open right now. It closes on April 25th at 7:00 PM Eastern, and then that's it. I'm not offering this coaching program again until 2025. You have no idea how successful you could be. Now's your chance to find out. Go to mel robbins.com/launch before another year of your life goes by or click the link below.
(00:21:29):
Welcome back. It's your friend Mel and boy, are you in for a treat today. I'm so excited. We are here with Dr. Tall Ben Shahar. He is the most popular professor in history at Harvard, teaches positive psychology, the psychology of leadership, and we're going through 30 years of his work on happiness and more importantly, how you can be a happier you. Now, we've already covered two important things. Let me just recap to make sure that you got this, that happiness is about wholeness and there are five elements to you being happier, spiritual, physical, your intellectual wellness, relationships and emotional. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you, Tal, is you're talking a lot about the things we can do to improve those areas of our life, which impacts our happiness. For somebody listening that maybe has not grown up around happy people doesn't really know if happiness is possible or even kind of what it feels like, where do you even begin if you don't know what happiness looks like or feels like or how to achieve it?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:22:47):
Yeah, I always tell my students that the best self-help books are biographies. Why? Because biographies give us the deep understanding of what a happy life or miserable or a successful life looks like. And one of my favorite biographies is Mahatma Gandhi's.
(00:23:12):
The subtitle of his autobiography is My Experiments with Truth. It's not my finding truth, it's not the ultimate truth, it's my experiments with truth. And that for me is a guiding mantra, and I think it ought to be for many of us because it is very much about experimentation. It's about trying things out. It's about trying different ways of being, living and doing and through experimentation. And if we're not afraid of experimenting trying, if we're not afraid of falling down, then we'll get better, then we'll grow, then we will actually become happier with an emphasis on happier. What do I mean by that? See, many people ask me, okay, Todd, you've been in this business for 30 years. 30 years ago you embarked on this journey. Are you finally happy today?
Mel Robbins (00:24:04):
Are you?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:24:05):
Good question. My answer is, I don't know what
Mel Robbins (00:24:09):
That is not acceptable to. Sorry, you're supposed to be here and tell us to be happy. How to be happy. You dunno if you're happy,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:24:17):
I'm here to tell you how to be happier, not happy because I don't know what being happy is or means in the sense that I don't think there is a binary zero one. Okay, so yesterday I was unhappy. Today I am happy rather than a binary zero one. It is a continuum. So I can certainly tell you that I'm a lot happier today than I was 30 years ago, but I hope that five years from now I'll be happier than I am today. How do I know that I will be happier? Or how do I know how to measure that? I'm both,
Mel Robbins (00:24:56):
I know this is kind of a basic question, but happiness alludes so many people. There are so many people that write in about feeling stuck or a lack of purpose or devastated with grief that I know when you look in the rear view mirror, you can say, oh, I'm happier than I was 10 years ago. I feel in your definition that you've presented to us that you really like a sense of wholeness, right? An access to it. But for somebody that really feels like whether it's because of depression or they're just been miserable their whole life or their life has been really hard.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:25:41):
So I would go for small changes, the kaizen change that the Japanese talk about, w
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:25:48):
Which is how can I become 1% happier? Not how can I become happy, not how can I find the answer, just how can I become 1% happier? And then if you ask this question and look at the five spire elements, and you can look at all five and you can look at one of them, how can I introduce a small change experiment with a small truth, and then see how that works? And then if it does, great to do more of it if it doesn't try something else. But the key is to continue moving because as we know, one of the major characteristics of depression is helplessness, which means doing nothing. So counter that with doing something. And again, that's something doesn't have to be major. One of the things that I'm working on a lot now is how small changes can make a big difference when consistently applied. And I know that you are doing work in that area as well. When you talk about take that one minute to breathe and those small changes make a big difference. And I've coined a term, so I dunno if you're familiar with the term MVP, not from sports, from business MVP, minimum viable product.
(00:27:09):
Now this is something a company brings out as sort of a beta version, a test case. And it's not perfect, it's not ready, it's not ideal, but it's good enough. So based on this MVP minimum viable product idea, I coined the term MVI, minimum viable intervention, minimum viable intervention. These are the small changes that you can introduce that actually make a difference over time. And this is what I would urge the mvi is what I would urge that someone who's feeling stuck or down or someone who just lacks motivation introduces In their lives. What are these mvi, for example, tell me, you know what? Actually let me go over the spire elements and provide an mvi I for each one.
Mel Robbins (00:27:56):
I love you. Yes.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:27:58):
Alright, so spiritual wellbeing. Spiritual wellbeing is about purpose and presence.
Mel Robbins (00:28:04):
Okay,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:28:04):
Let's say we for one minute breathe deeply focusing on the air, going in and out. That's meditation. It's not 30 minutes, but it's one minute. And we know and there's a lot of research showing that that one minute can make a huge difference. There are so many things we can do in one minute while being present and that will enhance. And we know that, and there's a lot of data on this will enhance your spiritual wellbeing as well as your physical wellbeing. But let's move to the P of SPIRE for a second please. So going to the gym, working out for an hour, great, doing high intensity interval training for 15 minutes. Amazing,
Mel Robbins (00:28:47):
Sounds horrible honestly,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:28:50):
But you'll become happier as a result subsequently. But what about taking 30 seconds or 45 seconds for a burst of energy running on the spot or doing your pushups or sit-ups, 45 seconds. That's all. Now we know, again, there is research on it showing that if you do it three times during the day, you'll actually have the equivalent of a workout. So it doesn't have to be all at once, meaning you can do it now for 45 seconds and then in two hours, another 45 seconds climbing up and down the stairs, which you can do in the office. You don't sweat, you don't need to shower after. And then five hours later you do it again when you get home 45 seconds, minimum viable intervention. It's cumulative and it actually has the effect of psychological wellbeing impacts and it also impacts your of course, physical wellbeing.
Mel Robbins (00:29:49):
Now, as you're talking, I just want to remind the person listening that you're considering this inside the context of happiness being wholeness and wellbeing, meaning you are intentional about caring for your wellbeing, that these are all components of wholeness, and these five categories are the ones that matter the most. So what's another MVI for I?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:30:22):
Intellectual wellbeing. So intellectual wellbeing, which is after spiritual and physical. It's the third element. This is about, for example, learning something new and going online and looking at these short excerpts. I'm going to learn a new technique or I'm going to learn a new idea or I'm going to come up with a new question to ask my partner or my friend. So this is intellectual wellbeing and it's incredible how these small changes, just asking a question or just learning something new then trigger your curiosity muscles. By the way, Mel, I forgot to say this, but curiosity, the saying, curiosity kills the cat.
(00:31:10):
It turns out that it's the opposite for human beings, meaning people who are curious, who ask many questions, who are lifelong learners actually live longer. Wow. So look at all the benefits of being curious. So that's intellectual wellbeing. Then we have relational wellbeing, the are of spire, a hug, a nice text. You send your partner relational wellbeing. Really listen, really listen to someone, be present for them, even if it's for two minutes. The impact of it on the relationship, on them, on you is remarkable. And yes, of course, if you have two, three hours to spend together, even better ideal, good enough to use those viss.
Mel Robbins (00:31:58):
I am hearing from so many people that listen to this podcast that are really struggling with loneliness. And if one aspect of the spire model, one of the five elements of happiness is your relationships and wellbeing in that area, what does the research say in terms of how many friends? Is it deep? Is it tons for somebody that's just feeling isolated and lonely or that sense? Where are all my friends and feels disconnection? What does the research say in terms of happiness?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:32:35):
Number one, predictor of happiness is quality time we spend with people we care about and who care about us. Now, we also know that the number one predictor of unhappiness in our world today is loneliness. And this was exacerbated as a result of covid of course, because what loneliness does is it very often gets us into this downward spiral where I feel lonely and I feel incompetent in the social realm. And what we need to do in order to get out of it is get out of it. There has to be focused action and intention. In other words, singletasking rather than multitasking. Because one of the main causes of loneliness is not the fact that we're not around people, it's the fact that when we're around people, we're also doing 20 other things.
(00:33:26):
Daniel Goldman calls our age, the age of distraction. So if I'm with friends, but at the same time I'm texting and doing something else and they're doing, we're not really together. The example that I like. So imagine you're listening to your favorite piece of music and can I share with you what mine is?
Mel Robbins (00:33:43):
Absolutely.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:33:44):
Alright. Don't tell anyone that
Mel Robbins (00:33:47):
Drake
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:33:47):
No close. Whitney Houston, and I'll always love you.
Mel Robbins (00:33:52):
Oh my God,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:33:53):
My favorite song of all time. So imagine you are listening to that or whatever your favorite
Mel Robbins (00:33:59):
Is,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:34:00):
And you close your eyes, you focus and you rate it on a scale of one to 10. It's your favorite,
Mel Robbins (00:34:06):
It's a 10.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:34:08):
And then you listen to your second most favorite. And my second most favorite is Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You listen to that and you rate it on a scale of one to 10, and it's not quite Whitney Houston, but he's pretty good. It's a nine and a half. And then for the perfect experience, you take these two pieces of music and you play them together
Mel Robbins (00:34:31):
At the same time.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:34:32):
At the same time. What do you get? 19 and a half. No, it's not a 10, not even a five. It's cacophony, it's noise. And that's modern life for you because what we're doing is we're trying to pack because of fomo, because we are eager to experience things. We pack in many things. So while we're with friends, we're also doing some work perhaps. And while we're with the kids, we're also watching a movie.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:34:58):
And you can't do it all. Well, you can do a lot, but you certainly can't enjoy it all. And much of our sense of loneliness comes because when we're with other people, we're not really with other people. And what we need to do is put time aside and it doesn't have to be seven hours, even if it's an hour twice a week, or that text that you commit yourself to mindfully, these small, committed, focused activities can get us out of the sense of loneliness or unhappiness.
Mel Robbins (00:35:35):
Beautiful. Beautiful. What a beautiful metaphor. It makes so much
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:35:39):
Sense. And finally, emotional wellbeing. That's about the gratitude journal. Take a minute to write three things that you are grateful for. Close your eyes and savor, savor what you have right now or write a journal about what's hurting you for two minutes. There's research showing that even two minute journaling, whether it's about difficult experiences or about ecstatic experiences, two minutes actually make us happier and healthier, better to write it in a journal or to talk about it than to just ruminate over it.
Mel Robbins (00:36:18):
Why is it better to write in a journal and talk about it?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:36:20):
So here I'm drawing on research by Sonya Luki, who's a professor at uc Riverside. And what she shows is that when we are dealing with painful emotions or difficult experiences, we can either talk about it, write about it, or think about it. People who think about it, it actually gets worse. We ruminate, we go down the rabbit hole downward spiral, and we can stay there for hours or sometimes weeks
Mel Robbins (00:36:49):
Or decades in some people,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:36:51):
Right? Exactly. Whereas if we write about it or talk about it, there's a much higher likelihood that will emerge stronger. Why? Because what we're doing when we're writing and talking about it, we're actually making sense of it. So often. And this is work on journaling, Jamie Penny Baker and others. Others showing that when we write about something very often we reach a aha moment or Oh, now I see what's happening or now I see what I need to do. And then it becomes more manageable, it becomes more coherent, more clear, and then we're ready to move on and we know what we ought to do. So writing and talking about it rather than ruminating about it is very important. And then after we have written about, talked about it, just do it. What is it? It could be an MVI, minimum viable intervention. It could be go to the gym doing it could be go out with friends, even if you don't really feel like it, but keep on experimenting with truths rather than sitting down and trying to figure out the meaning of life or the ultimate answer to the universe.
Mel Robbins (00:38:07):
I have something to share. That happened with my sister-in-law business partner and friend Christine. She had been somebody that really loved going to church and then many of us life gets busy with your kids, especially if they're in these sports teams and everything else. And something happened at the church. And so they kind of stopped going. And for a number of years she thought about it and thought about it and thought about it. And recently, let's talk MVIA minimum viable intervention. She just got up off her rear end. She didn't wait for her husband and sons to go with her. And she just one Sunday went back to one service. And I will tell you that there is something, if we go back to the rainbow analogy, and you think about happiness being an indirect thing in your life, that you feel in multiple ways that one small action of no longer thinking about it.
(00:39:13):
But going back, it has created more, it's almost like if you think about a rainbow, there is a hue there. There's a vibrancy there. And I love this word wholeness because it is part of her wellbeing to have a spiritual practice. And it does create a vibrancy and a wholeness in that area of her life. It is one simple change. It is an hour every week. It is not dependent on anybody else in her family doing it. And to me, that is a very clear example of what you're talking about in terms of how it relates to these five elements of happiness and how you can just in very small ways, experience what you're talking about.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:40:02):
Yeah. So I love that story and I love it because of what you brought up saying that it's one small action experiment with these small truths.
Mel Robbins (00:40:11):
I'm wondering, as one of the world's most respected and leading experts on happiness, what do you do every day to be happier?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:40:21):
I do the basics. I wake up in the morning and I do my meditation.
Mel Robbins (00:40:25):
Now do you lay in bed? Do you get up? How do you do
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:40:29):
Your meditation? I lay in bed and again, I'm a is that
Mel Robbins (00:40:32):
Technically just sort of
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:40:34):
Snoozing? What are you doing? You
Mel Robbins (00:40:35):
Literally are like, you wake up and then you meditate while you're
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:40:38):
Lying there. And then I meditate. And again, this is good for a morning. I'm a morning person, so when I wake up, I wake up, it's, I won't fall asleep again. But for people for whom it's difficult to wake up in the morning, get out of bed, wash your face, do whatever you need to energize, and then sit down if you need or do walking
Mel Robbins (00:40:54):
Meditation.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:40:55):
But meditation is where I start and then I read and I love reading in bed and I read quality stuff. I don't look at the news. That's very
Mel Robbins (00:41:07):
Important. You're not looking, you're looking at TMZ on your phone.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:41:09):
No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, that yes, but not the other news. So I do quality stuff in the morning, then I'm responsible for taking the kids to school. I love
Mel Robbins (00:41:24):
That.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:41:24):
Yeah,
Mel Robbins (00:41:25):
I bet they love that too.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:41:26):
They do and I do. And we have sort of a ritual around that where we talk and then they ask me, okay, dad, one message for the day. And it could be something like, be generous, be kind, or appreciate or whatever it is. And they go with it and they also share it with their friends.
Mel Robbins (00:41:49):
That's pretty
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:41:50):
Cool. So we have that. And then I go home and I work, mornings are my productive hours. And then I do yoga in the afternoon almost every day. Have lunch with wife and then sometimes work in the afternoon. Do sports. I do a lot of sports. Do
Mel Robbins (00:42:14):
You still play squash?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:42:15):
I play, I didn't play squash for 25 years, and I always said, if one of my kids plays, then I'll take it up again. And our little one, our 14-year-old plays squash. So I play with him.
Mel Robbins (00:42:26):
I bet you're a monster on the pickleball court.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:42:28):
I've never played pickleball, but I want I bet would destroy it. I want to, yeah. And then I love movies. I love reading, hanging out with friends, family.
Mel Robbins (00:42:43):
I want to reflect on something because what you're describing sounds like a happy life. And if you're not watching this on YouTube, you can probably hear in TA's voice that he's smiling as he's reflecting on this.
Mel Robbins (00:43:03):
And it is true that so many of us make ourselves unhappy because we think that the answer to it is something out there that national championship, the getting into the right school, the right grades, the right this, the right that. And what you just described is the little things you do every day that make you feel whole.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:43:27):
There's something very important, Mel, that I want to add. It may sound fairytale. Oh, he's always happy and always smiling far from it. I have my
Mel Robbins (00:43:37):
Bad day. Why? Ask your kids. They said some days you're a real jerk. Just
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:43:41):
Kidding. They don't say, they don't say jerk, but they say, daddy, chill.
Mel Robbins (00:43:44):
Yeah, chill.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:43:45):
Chill. Yeah. And it's important to understand not every morning when I get up, I want to write. Some mornings I get up and I want to stay in bed and do nothing. What is most important is what we do rather than what we feel. I do what I do, whether it's the yoga, whether it's the writing, whether it's spending time with family and friends. I do it even if I don't feel like it. And over time, what we do affects us. It also affects our feelings.
Mel Robbins (00:44:20):
Tal, when I was researching your work to get ready for this conversation today, I came across a video that you did that has 7 million views where you say Stop chasing happiness and you want us to focus on something else instead, I'm going to ask you to tell us what we're supposed to be focused on after a short word from our sponsors. So stay with us. You'll be happy you did. Hey, it's your buddy Mel and I made this video because I'm constantly asked by fans of the Mel Robbins podcast, Mel, how can I work with you, Mel? How can I get more support from you? And there's one way you can do that. Once a year, I offer a six month long program called Launch. I lead it. I designed it. It is extraordinary and it is open for registration right now. I'm not doing this again until 2025.
(00:45:06):
I am leading the trainings. I put you through a six month experience where you get to pick a project in your personal, your professional, your business life. And for six months you are in a coaching container led by me where you get the structure, the accountability, the research back tools that you need in order to take something from here to real life. This is your chance. Registration is open. Go to mel robbins.com/launch to get all the details and see if it's for you. And if it's for you, get yourself in this, you deserve it, and you're going to shock yourself by what you create when you have the support from Mel Robbins that you deserve.
(00:45:43):
Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I'm so happy you're here with me today because we are getting to spend time with Tal Ben Shahar. He's one of the most respected and prolific experts on happiness in the world, and he is the most popular professor to ever teach at Harvard. He taught positive psychology and we're digging into 30 years of research and what research says about how you can be happier. We've already covered the definition of happiness as this sense of wholeness. We've talked about the five elements of happiness. He's made it very clear that this is not about checking boxes, it's not about achieving goals, it's about pursuing small 1% changes in these five areas of your life. And one of the most popular things you've ever put out online has 7 million views in less than a year. Don't chase happiness become anti-fragile. What does anti-fragile mean?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:46:40):
Yeah, that's one of those concepts that really made a difference in my life. It's an idea that I read about through the work of Nasim Talib, who's a professor at New York University and what is anti-fragility? The opposite of fragility or I've come to look at it as resilience 2.0.
Mel Robbins (00:47:00):
Okay,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:47:00):
So let's begin with 1.0 resilience please. Resilience. 1.0 is actually a term that comes from engineering. It simply means that
Mel Robbins (00:47:08):
Resilience 1.0 comes from engineering
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:47:10):
Resilience as a term comes from engineering.
Mel Robbins (00:47:12):
See, that computer science that classes you took stands me in. Good, there you
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:47:16):
Go. Absolutely. So what it means is that if you have certain material and you put pressure on it, if it's resilient, it goes back to its original form.
(00:47:27):
You squish a piece of rubber resilient, it returns to where it was before a ball, you drop it, if it's resilient, it bounces back up to where it was before. So that's 1.0. What's resilience 2.0 or anti-fragility? You take material, you put pressure and stress on it as a result of the pressure and stress, it actually grows stronger, bigger, healthier, or you drop a ball resilience 1.0, it simply bounces back 2.0, antifragility, it bounces back higher as a result. And it turns out that there are antifragile systems all around us and within us. Think about it. For example, our muscular system. You go to the gym, you're putting stress on your muscles, what happens as a result of it? If you persist, you actually grow stronger, bigger, healthier as a result of that stress. Anti-fragile systems, not just physiologically, also psychologically. And that's important. Most of the students in my class, not all, but most of them were psychology majors. And I would always ask them two questions. The first question was, put your hand up if you know what PTSD is just about everyone in the class put their hand up. They've heard of post-traumatic stress disorder. They've read about it, studied it in Psych one newspaper,
(00:48:49):
People know what it is. And I said, okay, put your hands down and now put your hands up. If you've heard of the term PTG, hardly anyone put their hand up. And again, these are psychology majors. PTG stands for post-traumatic growth. So whereas PTSD is breaking down, being fragile, PTG post-traumatic growth is being anti-fragile growing as a result of trauma or hardship or difficulty.
Mel Robbins (00:49:19):
How do you do that?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:49:21):
So here is the thing, this amazed me about the research and there's a lot of research by Eshi Calhoun and others merely knowing about the existence of PTG of post-traumatic growth of anti-fragility actually makes it more likely to happen.
Mel Robbins (00:49:37):
Wow.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:49:38):
Why? Because what does knowing about PTG do for us? What it does for us is it actually gives us hope because oh, okay, so I'm going through hardship difficulties. I'm really struggling, but I can actually grow from this. So I become hopeful. Now if you think about it, what is the main difference between sadness and depression? The main difference between sadness and depression is that depression is sadness without hope. Depression is sadness without hope because sadness, I mean
Mel Robbins (00:50:14):
You feel it every day.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:50:14):
Yeah, 10 times a day, sometimes big deal. That too shall pass. But if that sadness is devoid of hope, that too shall pass, then that's problematic. That's when we become hopeless and that's when we experience being helpless. And that's depression. So knowing about PTG gives us hope, makes it more likely to happen. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And remember, most people have never heard of these terms, don't know that even in the realm of the possible. So that's the first thing.
Mel Robbins (00:50:48):
I love that because the other thing that's happened, and I know that you see this too, is just the proliferation of short form content on social media has so much about identifying trauma. And it would be wonderful, especially based on this research, if there were just as many reels and social media posts about post-traumatic growth, that knowing that you are struggling with something is the first step to kind of knowing what you need to address. But being aware that you can grow through this and be stronger. And I think we all know this somewhere in the back of our mind. And even if I look back on my own life tall, and I think about even a period in my marriage where my husband and I wanted to kill each other, and we went to therapy. Our marriage was in the pits. We'd been together for over 20 years and we were just having a lot of problems and we were not feeling connected with one another.
(00:51:57):
And I can see that if you're in a situation that's very difficult, whether you're grieving or you're having a relationship problem or you've now just lost your third job or whatever it may be, and you add a sense of hopelessness to it, you've just driven a nail into the coffin and sealed it shut. It's the hope that it can get better. That is what allows you to grow through it. And you're here to say that no matter what the traumatic experience or the heaviness of the emotion or the very real life experience that you may be living through right now, that just like a sun can shine through a prism and cast a rainbow so too hope can shine through this experience and you can grow stronger. And even just knowing that in your definition of being a whole human being who takes care of self, that hope is a critical ingredient to you getting better. Is that what you're saying?
Mel Robbins (00:52:21):
That is what allows you to grow through it. And you're here to say that no matter what the traumatic experience or the heaviness of the emotion or the very real life experience that you may be living through right now, that just like a sun can shine through a prism and cast a rainbow so too hope can shine through this experience and you can grow stronger. And even just knowing that in your definition of being a whole human being who takes care of self, that hope is a critical ingredient to you getting better. Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:53:01):
Absolutely. And it's a critical period for you as an individual getting better. It's a critical element of a relationship as you pointed out. It's also a critical element of national growth.
Mel Robbins (00:53:15):
Yes, that's exactly what happened. I realized I didn't complete the whole thing is that in working through it and having the really hard conversations and really exploring ourselves and sticking through the very hard painful times, I have a profound sense of in your definition that you are giving us tal a sense of wholeness in the relationship and also a sense of wholeness with self. And it's true. If you really are listening to what t's saying and you reflect on your own life and you think about any moment in your life that was crazy painful, notice whether or not as you move through it and you really are honest with yourself, that there was that bounce up effect that happens after it as you move through the grief or the disappointment or the heartbreak that all of a sudden you wake up one day and you weren't staring at the sun directly going, I'm going to be having, you were just slowly working on your wellbeing and you felt different. And as I really listen closely to what you're teaching us, I think that's what I'm starting to take away.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:54:35):
And I will add to that. And you mentioned earlier about how knowing that you can grow from it contributes to your wellbeing. Just knowing that a gridlock or hardships, these are all natural parts of our evolution of life. No one is exempt from these no relationship. It could be the best fairytale relationship. They'll have their gridlocks. Just knowing that it's a natural part of a relationship that is uplifting because it's liberating because you're saying, oh, okay, it's normal. And that's exactly what I felt after reading Schnarch and going through a gridlock with my amazing wife saying, okay, so it's fine. That too shall pass. And that's what gives hope.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:55:26):
And that is what becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because through that hope you actually grow within the relationship or in another context.
Mel Robbins (00:55:34):
It's so true. With the 30 years that you have spent researching this topic, is there anything that bubbles up from the research that is top predictors of whether or not you're going to have that sense of wholeness and happiness in your life?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:55:52):
The number one would be the belief that you can make a difference. Many people ask me, so what is the content of the chorus, whether it's the MA or the certificate program? And they're always surprised that I say that at the beginning. We start learning about systems thinking.
Mel Robbins (00:56:16):
Oh really?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:56:17):
Yeah. And systems thinking
Mel Robbins (00:56:19):
For somebody who has no idea what that is, what the hell is systems thinking? No, seriously. For somebody who's like what systems
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:56:24):
Thinking. Yeah. So systems thinking is about looking at things as holes, so looking at the system rather than the symptom.
Mel Robbins (00:56:35):
So
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:56:35):
Looking at the system, whether it's an organization is a system. The human body is a system. It's a system of cells and organs. A system is all about interconnectedness. And the key in a system is to find leverage points. Where do I press, where do I touch to affect the entire system? It's what Charles Duhig talks about, keystone
Mel Robbins (00:57:01):
Habits. What
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:57:02):
Is that place? One thing that if you do will impact another part of the system. And another part is it exercising daily? Is it starting your day zone one of the day with deep breaths, a meditation? Is it leaving home and hugging your loved one? What is that one thing? And when everything is interconnected, it actually doesn't matter that much where you enter the system because it'll affect everyone else. This is why the emphasis on that one small action is so critical because you can literally sit down and think for years about how I'm going to change my life or you can just do it.
Mel Robbins (00:57:45):
What is so cool about this is that visually speaking, between the rainbow example and this idea of systems and wholeness and everything being interconnected in this model, traumatic experiences are connected to happiness, sadness and grief are connected to happiness. Struggles and periods of feeling lost are profoundly connected to happiness. Why?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:58:14):
Painful experiences, difficult experiences are inevitable.
Mel Robbins (00:58:17):
Yes.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:58:17):
Again, there is no life exemplary, but let's play a game.
Mel Robbins (00:58:20):
Okay?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:58:21):
Let's imagine that sometime in the future, and by the way, this right now it's a theory, but it could become a reality sometime in the future will have the ability to drive away all pain because we'll have such great control over our neurons that we'll be able to control what we feel all the time. So in,
Mel Robbins (00:58:47):
Why would you want to do that?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:58:49):
Well, why would you want to do it? Many people would, especially when they're in the midst of hardship and difficulty. All you want is for it to go away. Or what if you see your loved one, your child in pain? Maybe you can make it go away.
Mel Robbins (00:59:04):
I just got something from you.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:59:06):
Do tell.
Mel Robbins (00:59:07):
The reason why I had that reaction I realized is because I have the belief that pain disappears with time.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:59:17):
The hope.
Mel Robbins (00:59:17):
Yes.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (00:59:19):
Whoa. And what someone doesn't have that. And again, many people, people will make it go away. I mean, if you think about it, why are we so as a culture so obsessed with those pills? And again, I'm not against psychiatric medication and sometimes it has saved lives. And I know some cases intimately where it has. However, we're too trigger happy when it comes to dispensing pills. Why? Because we want to make it go away. So if we play this theoretical game that we do get to a world where no side effects because we know exactly how to make these painful experiences disappear, would we do it? But then what would happen if you take a room full? I've often asked my students this, think about the experiences that you're most grateful for in terms of where you are today, things where you have learned the most that have helped you grow the most.
(01:00:16):
Think about them now put your hand up. If there were fun experiences, enjoyable ones, very few people put their hands up. It's almost always difficult experiences. Now, do you want to do away with that? Do you want to get rid of growth and learning? And this is exactly what will happen if we don't have any of these painful experiences. So when you say they're a part and parcel of a happy life, they're essential to a full and fulfilling life. And when we begin to look at these experiences as such, then our reaction can be similar to what you said.
Mel Robbins (01:00:53):
I
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:00:53):
Don't want to get rid of them. In fact, I don't enjoy them, but I embrace them.
Mel Robbins (01:00:58):
Well, and what you're also offering is a roadmap of hope and action. For anybody who's in the thick of that, who's like, give me the pill because I just lost my child.
(01:01:09):
And there is, I don't want to feel what I'm feeling. And what you are saying is that based on the human experience from the beginning of time, we are designed to move through these things. These emotional, painful, traumatic experiences are a moment in your life. And that if you look at that rainbow and you look at spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, or emotional wellness for yourself, and you take this MVI model of minimum viable intervention, and you say to yourself, two things can be true. This can be the worst thing that's ever happened to me and the deepest pain I've ever felt. And I can wake up in the morning and I can pick one of those categories and I can take one action in the spire model forward. And that is a way to start to move through this and experience that wholeness that you're talking about, even though it's so difficult.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:02:21):
Yes. And Mel, I want to share a story,
Mel Robbins (01:02:25):
Please.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:02:27):
When I was 27, I lost the most important person in my life to me at the time. It was a dear, dear friend who died in a plane crash. This was when I was living in Asia. It was a plane from Indonesia to Singapore and it crashed. It was the 19th of December, 1997. And I thought my life had ended at that moment. We were supposed to meet in Singapore and it didn't happen. And I called up a mentor of mine. His name is Nathaniel Brandon. Nathaniel. Brandon has written many books on self-esteem. I'd learned with him, and I called him up for two reasons. A, because he was my teacher and mentor, and B, because he himself had lost his wife in a freak drowning accident when he was around a bit older than I was at the time. And I called him up crying and he knew my friends. So he was very much distressed as well. And he said, halal, I'm going to tell you something now that you're not going to understand, but keep it in mind anyway. He said, you're going to get over this. It's going to be painful. It's going to hurt like hell, but you going to get over it. We all do because if we hadn't, then God help us all.
(01:04:05):
And again, this was many, many years ago. I still remember it and I remember it each time, even when I go through minor crises because we do get over it because we're built to overcome hardship and difficulties. And sometimes it takes longer, sometimes it's a day. But we do get over it. And having that hope and doing something with it again, not staying and moping and ruminating, writing about it, talking about it, doing small things, that is the way out of it.
Mel Robbins (01:04:42):
Thank you for sharing that. I was trying to put myself in your shoes because I think in the depths of that moment I'd probably be like, fuck you. I don't want to hear that. I'm not getting over the what I'm saying. But it is true that we do get through the things that we never think that it's possible to get through. I'm also really curious, since you're constantly researching something and clearly writing a book and you've got an academy and you are teaching people around the world, is there a particular piece of research or new kind of finding around happiness that really excites you?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:05:22):
So what I think about a lot is how do you bring about lasting change? Because people are listening to us now and they're thinking, oh yeah, I want to do it. Or I would give a lecture and the audience would think,
Mel Robbins (01:05:35):
Yeah,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:05:36):
I'm going to implement it. But most times nothing happens. Most change efforts. You talk about it coming into 2024, so you have a goal and a 30 day challenge in January, February. What happens with that? Usually not much. So what I think about constantly and what I'm researching is how can you increase the likelihood, not guarantee, but increase the likelihood that you will enjoy lasting change.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:06:07):
I love acronyms as you figure it out. The Spire, MVI. So here's the third acronym.
Mel Robbins (01:06:12):
Give it to us,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:06:13):
The three Rs,
Mel Robbins (01:06:15):
The three of
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:06:15):
Charge.
Mel Robbins (01:06:15):
Okay. And we can use this with everything that you've taught us today in terms of being happier, A lasting change in your life.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:06:27):
Exactly. Okay. So the three R, that's why it's so important for me to think about it, write about it, talk about it. The three Rs of change are essentially should be the intel inside, so to speak, of every change
Mel Robbins (01:06:41):
Effort.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:06:41):
So what are they? It's not reading, writing in arithmetic, other three Rs. It's the first R is reminder. I mean, think about it, Mel. So if I asked you this, tell me is it important for you to appreciate the good people in your life to appreciate whatever works in your life, or do you prefer to take it all for granted? Exactly. Exactly. So no one would say, I've had enough of appreciating my loved ones. It's time to take them for granted for a while. No one would say that
Mel Robbins (01:07:15):
Except for my husband in therapy,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:07:19):
That who shall pass. And yet, and yet, even though everyone would say it's important for me to appreciate most people, this is an empirical fact. Most people most of the time take the good things in their lives for granted.
Mel Robbins (01:07:34):
True,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:07:34):
Do not appreciate their loved ones most of the time. True, most people, most of the time. Now, it's not because they're bad people, it's not because they are not smart. It's not because they don't have the desire to appreciate all these things are in place. The problem is that we forget, which is why the first antidote to forgetfulness or the first antidote to the absence of change is reminders.
Mel Robbins (01:08:03):
And
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:08:04):
Mel, you talk about it. You talk about your post-its,
Mel Robbins (01:08:06):
Yes,
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:08:06):
I love that. Create reminders around you, whether it's walking around with a bracelet that reminds me of something specific
Mel Robbins (01:08:16):
Or a rainbow. I keep thinking about how much you've poured into us and how actionable everything is. And understandable that even if you were to write on a post-it spire and it's a reminder of the five elements every morning, and you pop it on your mirror at your computer at work, now it's in your face. And that's more likely with the reminder to help you go to the next star, which is what?
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:08:41):
Which is repetition. Because one or two reminders, one day, second day, not enough. We need repetition. We need to do it over and over and over again. And for that you need many reminders. So for example, a recurring function on your calendar every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, I'm in the gym. And after you have repetition and you have enough of it, that is when we get to the third R, which is rituals. What are rituals? Rituals are actually deeply embedded neural pathways that when we repeat an action over and over again, that action becomes automatic. Because neural pathways have been formed, our brain has quite literally been transformed through the repetitive action. Simple example, mom reminded me to brush my teeth over and over again repetitively. I don't need mom anymore to rebound you because it's a ritual. It's the same with cultivating a tennis forehand. Initially the coach reminds you get your hand up, meet the ball here,
Mel Robbins (01:09:48):
And
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:09:48):
You do it again and again. And then you wake up Serena Williams in the middle of the night, she'll hit that forehand.
Mel Robbins (01:09:54):
That's true
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:09:54):
Perfectly because it's a ritual. It's a habit. There are neural pathways associated with that, whether it's for hugging your loved ones, whether it's for acts of kindness, we can actually ritualize them. Now, too many people, this sounds like the absence of spontaneity. If you ritualize things, I'm not against spontaneity, it's great. But if you want to bring about lasting change, the only reliable way that we know about is by cultivating rituals. And you do that through reminders and repetition.
Mel Robbins (01:10:26):
Well, and there's a fourth R
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:10:28):
Do
Mel Robbins (01:10:28):
Tell, which is the fact that it's not about the fact that you're removing spontaneity, you're removing something else, your resistance
(01:10:37):
To doing something new. And if I bring this full circle to the topic of being a happier you and the fact that in your definition of wholeness and the five elements of happiness, which all tie to wellbeing, that you could apply the reminder, the repetition over and over and over in each of those five elements, going to church or to temple or to mosque, or if your church version is taking a walk in the woods, making that something that you repeat so that it becomes a ritual that these things. And I am suspecting that this is why you are an unwavering optimist in people's ability, absolutely anyone's ability to be happier.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:11:43):
Helen Keller, who's one of my teachers, has an essay on optimism, which I highly recommend that you read. And in it, she says, my religion is optimism. And she says, I look around metaphorically, I look around the world and what I see is a lot of hardship and difficulty. What I also see is the overcoming of it. And she was a consummate optimist. I mean, how could she have not been given the hand that she was dealt? And she still lived a happy life, a full and fulfilling life. And I think there is a very important lesson that we can learn from her. And if I may, I just want to recommend something else by Helen Keller, please. So the essay on optimism. The second one is an essay that she wrote called Three Days to See In it, she reflects on what she would do if having been blind and deaf for most of her life. What would she do if she were to regain her hearing or vision? What would she do for three days? And she talks about it and she talks about how important it is to appreciate, not take for granted the things that we have. And I have Helen Keller's essay Next to Me as a reminder. A reminder, a to appreciate and as a reminder of the religion of
Mel Robbins (01:13:15):
Optimism. Wow. Wow. Dr. Tal, Ben Shahar, thank you, thank you, thank you. You made a huge difference in my life, and I know that you just made an enormous difference in helping people around the world be happier.
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar (01:13:35):
Thank you, Mel. And what I'm most grateful for in terms of your work is that you create a bridge between evidence-based academic ideas and you make them accessible.
Mel Robbins (01:13:48):
Oh, that's a massive compliment coming from you. I accept that. Thank you. Thank you. And for you listening, I just wanted to be sure, in case nobody else tells you that. I tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I know I speak for both of us when I say we believe in your ability to take action and do the little things single day that will bring more happiness into your life now, go do it. I'll talk to you in a few days. You love him. I love you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for being here with us and me on YouTube. It makes me so happy that you're here. It also makes me happy that you share what you're learning. So thank you for sharing this episode. Thank you for subscribing. It just takes a second. It's a small thing you can do to support me in bringing you this amazing content. And I know what you're thinking now, Mel, what do I watch next? Well, you're going to want to watch this. This is an episode that we did about the formula for happiness, and it's with Sean Anchor. And what's super cool about this is that he was a student of Dr. Tall Ben Shahar. How cool is that? Check it out. I.
Key takeaways
Success gives you a high, but it fades fast. If you tie your happiness to achievements, you’ll always feel like something’s missing.
Want to feel happier? Focus on being whole, not on being happy. Pursue spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional well-being.
Even one minute of intentional action—like a breath, a hug, or writing down a thought—can shift your state and create real momentum.
Hope is the antidote to despair; just knowing that post-traumatic growth is possible makes it more likely you’ll heal.
Don’t wait to feel ready. Do the thing anyway, because over time, what you do changes how you feel.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, PhD
Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar is a positive psychology expert, Harvard professor, and bestselling author known for his groundbreaking work on happiness and fulfillment.
-
Books
Can You Learn to Be Happy?
YES . . . according to the teacher of HarvardUniversity’s most popular and life-changing course. One out of every five Harvard students has lined up to hear Tal Ben-Shahar’s insightful and inspiring lectures on that ever-elusive state: HAPPINESS.
Resources
-
- The Mel Robbins Podcast: "How to Set & Achieve Goals: 2 Surprising Science-Backed Steps You Must Follow" - This is the episode Mel mentions about goals, that cites Dr. Ben-Shahar's research about Olympians
- Harvard School of Arts and Sciences: Master of Happiness, Tal Ben-Shahar.
- New York Times: The happiness course, here’s what you need to know.
- Entrepreneur: 4 practical ways to boost your team’s morale.
- Psychology Today: The importance of deep relationships.
- Forbes: 5 ways to break out of your slump.
- New York Times: How to feel less lonely.
- Psychology Today: The SPIRE model, what stands in our way of being happy
- Forbes: What the heck is antifragile?
- Harvard Business Review: How to make a change that lasts
- The Harvard Gazette: Good genes are nice, but joy is better.
- The Atlantic: Longest study in human health found the key to a good life.
- Frontiers in Psychology: Resilience and stress as mediators of happiness.
- Stanford Center on Longevity: Strong relationships help you live longer.
- Foundation for Social Connection: Guide for building connected communities.
- Psychology Today: Research identifies 2 major causes of loneliness.
- British J of Clinical Psych: Link between emotional regulation and loneliness.
- Psych Central: How to develop the skill of emotional regulation.
- Harvard Business Review: 3 things that won’t make you happy.
- National Public Radio: Jon Kabat-Zinn shares insights to combat isolation.
- Psychology Today: Is our happiness set in stone?
- The New York Times: What makes some people more resilient than others?
- The Guardian: 6 ways to raise a resilient child.
- Science of People: 57 conversation starters for killer conversations.
2 Million Readers.
1 Life-Changing Newsletter
Simple and Straight-to-the-Point...
Just Like Mel.
