Episode: 235
Dr. Gabor Maté: The Shocking Link Between ADHD, Addiction, Autoimmune Diseases, & Trauma
with Dr. Gabor Maté, MD
Dr. Gabor Maté, a world-renowned trauma expert, shares insights unlike ever before.
Dr. Maté will show you how your early life experiences shape the way you feel today, both mentally and physically, and how understanding your past can free you to make healthier choices right now.
This episode is about unlocking real healing and finding hope.
Listen on:
Don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain.
Dr. Gabor Mate, MD
Featured Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:00:00):
Is it fair to say that your childhood and the conditions and the experiences that you have directly create or cause ADHD addiction and autoimmune issues?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:00:12):
That's right. If you look at children in poverty or who experience racialized circumstances, they're more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. The children of women with postpartum depression are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. The children of women who are stressed during pregnancy are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. There's no parent blaming here, but we have to recognize the importance and the impact of early experiences. The diagnosis doesn't explain anything.
Mel Robbins (00:00:40):
What do you mean the diagnosis doesn't mean anything?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:00:41):
Don't ask why the addiction ask, why the pain? And if you want to understand the pain, look at the person's life rather than just their genes.
Mel Robbins (00:00:54):
Hey, it's your friend, Mel. I'm so excited that you're here with me today. It is always an honor to be able to spend some time with you, to be together, to learn together. If you're brand new. I want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. Super excited that you're here. And because you chose to listen to this episode, I know something about you. You are the type of person who values your time, and you're also in learning about simple ways that you can improve your own life, and I absolutely love that. And you know what I also love? I love that you and I are going to get to spend time today learning from the extraordinary Dr. Gabor Mate. He's a world-renowned physician, a New York Times bestselling author, and a renowned addiction expert who dies deep into childhood development and the impact of physiological and psychological trauma and how it shapes our mental and physical health over your lifetime. And today, specifically, you and I are going to dive deep with Dr. Mate into how ADHD people, people-pleasing addiction, your inability to say no. And autoimmune disorders are not things that you're born with. They were created by your childhood. So please help me welcome Dr. Gabor Mate to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:02:06):
Thank you.
Mel Robbins (00:02:07):
I'm really excited about the topic today and your work around how childhood conditions and experiences in your childhood are connected to ADHD addiction and autoimmune diseases and disorders. And I have so many questions I want to ask you. Why don't we start with just your definition of what you're talking about when you mean childhood conditions, so that as the person is listening to us today and spending time with us together, we're all using the same words and concepts and we kind of start on the same page.
Mel Robbins (00:02:24):
And I have so many questions I want to ask you. Why don't we start with just your definition of what you're talking about when you mean childhood conditions, so that as the person is listening to us today and spending time with us together, we're all using the same words and concepts and we kind of start on the same page.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:02:46):
So childhood conditions include the physical conditions, nutrition, housing, comfort protection, but they also include the emotional conditions, which it has to do with a child's sense of being accepted or being loved. Not just this love but actually being seen, understood. And also in the parent's emotional states, other parents stressed. Are other parents struggling with economic difficulties? Are the parents carrying traumas that they hadn't worked through yet like I had when I was a young parent, other parents in a marriage that's relatively peaceful. Is there a lot of conflict? Is there a lot of instability? Is there unpredictability? What kind of community support there is? Is there an extended family that can spell off the parents and give them some kind of emotional support? Are they rather isolated? Are you a single parent struggling to make a living and raise a child? So all these conditions affect the personality and the brain development of the child.
Mel Robbins (00:03:59):
I know you wrote the original book on childhood development and ADHD Scattered Minds 25 years ago. It is still on the bestseller list when it comes to ADHD topics. I don't know if I'm going to say this correctly, but is it fair to say that your opinion is that your childhood and the conditions and the experiences that you have directly create or cause ADHD addiction and autoimmune issues?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:04:29):
Yes, along with certain genetic predispositions, but I can talk about genetics later, but what I want to say about them now is a predisposition is not as same as a predetermination. So you can have predispositions, but then depending on the environmental conditions, those predispositions can be expressed one way or another way. So you can have animals with the same genes or humans with the same genes. They have very different outcomes depending on the kind of conditions under which the early years were spent under. So that's what I'm saying. Yes. And the first recognition of that in my life came when I was diagnosed with a H ADHD at age 53 or 52 or something.
Mel Robbins (00:05:13):
So I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 46 when our son Oakley was going through the process of going through neuropsych evaluations for schools and IEPs. And as they were doing his evaluations, I started going, oh, wait a minute. That's a lot like me. And then I went through the formal process of being evaluated and diagnosed dyslexia, ADHD. And I had never, ever, ever heard anyone connect your childhood and adverse conditions or conditions where you didn't get your needs met being a contributing factor or a cause of ADHD. How is that even possible?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:05:57):
Well, it's possible because western medicine separates the mind from the body.
(00:06:02):
So they tend to look at things purely from a biological point of view. So ADHD is considered to be a genetic disease that you inherited. Here's the problem with that. Number one, if that's the case, why the numbers going up? Genes don't change in a population over 10, 20 or 30 years. Something's going on in the environment that's affecting the child development, number one. Number two, even if you look at the physiology of the child's brain was not understood by most physicians because it's not taught in the medical schools, but is firmly and completely unequivocally. And uncontroversially established in brain science is that the brain is a social product that the brain development of the child depends on the emotional conditions under which the child lives from in utero onwards. And so that the very circuitry of the child's brain, it's programmed by the action of the environment on the genes. So different environments will act differently on the same genes. Now if you look at ADHD, what's the medication that we give? I took it for a while. Stimulants,
(00:07:06):
What do stimulants do? They elevate the level of a chemical called dopamine in the brain. And dopamine is essential for motivation and therefore for focus. And that's what Ritalin and Dexedrine and Adderall and all these medications elevate. Now, the dopamine circuit of the child's brain develops an interaction with the environment. And this is what most people who deal with ADHD just don't look at, even though it's just a pure scientific fact. And the summary from Harvard University pointed out that the child's brain develops in interaction with the environment, especially the emotional relationship with the nurturing adults. Now, dopamine is the brain chemical. We have receptors for women in our brain, and receptors are molecules where the dopamine can land and do job. The number of dopamine receptors in a child is affected by stress on the mother already in pregnancy, let alone afterwards. If you take mice and you isolate them, the number of dopamine receptors will go down. If you're bring back into companionship, the number of dopamine receptors will elevate. In other words, the brain is a social organ. It's interactive with the environment all our lives, and therefore environmental conditions affect the brain, especially during its phase of early development. It's just pure science. It's not even controversial. So the problem here is the tendency of the medical profession in which I was trained is to ate the mind from the body and to look at brain biology in isolation from the life circumstances that shape that brain biology. So that's one problem here.
Mel Robbins (00:08:48):
So I'm going to try to distill what you just said because I've never heard it explained quite like that. And I believe you what you're saying is that your brain is a social organ that is developed in partnership with your relationship to the adults around you when you're literally inside your mother's womb all the way until you are developing as a little kid. And if you are in a condition, whether it is the condition of being inside your mother's womb and your mother is depressed or experiencing racism or abuse or poverty or any of these things that create chronic stress on a human being, it impacts the development of your brain.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:09:41):
Exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:09:41):
And what you're also saying is that ADHD and the way that it is treated is typically through prescription drugs, flood the brain with dopamine. And that is what helps your underdeveloped brain or whatever we want to call it, or the brain that's been impacted by stressful conditions during your childhood or your development in womb, and that the stressful conditions are what has interfered with the brain development
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:10:20):
And continues to. Now,
Mel Robbins (00:10:22):
Can I ask you a quick question?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:10:23):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:10:24):
So I understand that when as a human being, you're experiencing stress or you are experiencing a threat or you're feeling isolated and lonely and like you're invisible or nobody cares about you, that it switches between that your body naturally switches from being present and in the prefrontal cortex to the amygdala taking over. And you're now in fight or flight. When you're in fight or flight and you're kind of in that stress response state. Does it interfere with dopamine?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:11:01):
It interferes with dopamine, it interferes with cortisol. It has effect on the memory centers in the brain, like the hippocampus.
(00:11:09):
It affects the amygdala, all those things. And if you look at children in poverty or who experience racialized circumstances, they're more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. The children of women with postpartum depression are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. The children of women who are stressed during pregnancy are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. And there's this myth about it being genetic because it tends to run in families like you were diagnosed, your kids are diagnosed. I was diagnosed, a couple of my kids are diagnosed, but it's not because the so-called disease, first of all, it's not even a disease, but it's not because the so-called disease was passed on, but because the conditions that created
Mel Robbins (00:11:55):
The
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:11:55):
Brain that created your brain were also then repeated in your children's childhood as in mine. So something running in a family says nothing about genetic causation. And going back to the flight or fight thing, if a child is feeling stressed, and by the way, I think there is something genetic here, and what is genetic here sensitivity. And the more sensitive kids are, the more they feel what's going on around them. So if the parents are stressed, the child feels distress, can the child escape or fight back?
Mel Robbins (00:12:29):
No.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:12:29):
But do they tune out? But when did they tune out? They tune out when their brain is developing. So that gets wired into the rain and now they're told, you got this genetic disease. No, you don't. It's an adaptation that it began as an adaptation. And as with many of these sheltered adaptations later on, they create problems. So they serve a purpose, but now they are wired in. And not to mention, if you look at the traits of ADHD, which is the absent mindedness to tuning out. And then the other traits of ADHD are poor impulse regulation, which means that when you want to do something, I might have an impulse to do something. There's nothing wrong with the impulse, but there's something wrong with me acting out the impulse.
(00:13:20):
But the impulse regulation depends on certain circuitry in the brain. No baby has an impulse regulation. It has to develop for anything that's developmental. The conditions have to be right. If a plant in your backyard wasn't growing the way you expected it, you'd look at what's missing here, nutrition, sunlight, irrigation. It's the same with kids. When they've got these challenges, let's look at the conditions that shape their development. So invoice regulation is another brain circuitry that doesn't develop well in people with ADHD and incidentally in people who are addicted, which is why there's such a great link between addictions and ADHD. And then the third one is, which is sometimes they're not always hyperactivity, more tends to be there more in boys,
Mel Robbins (00:14:07):
Boys not girls.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:14:09):
And regulation of the body is a function of the mid frontal cortex that has to develop. So under conditions of stress, given that the brain is a social organ and it's also a historical organ...
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:14:22):
Do you know that? Does the name Bruce Perry mean anything to you?
Mel Robbins (00:14:25):
Is he in Wisconsin?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:14:26):
I don't know where he is, but he is a, well, one known child trauma psychiatrist.
Mel Robbins (00:14:29):
Yes. I believe he's in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, I think. But don't quote me on that. Did he write the book with Oprah Winfrey?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:14:34):
Yeah, he wrote the book, what Happened to you? And he says, the debate is a historical organ. So it's towards the impacts of life experiences. So when we look at brain biology, let's not think that the biology is somehow distinct and separated from life experience. So there's no fault laying here. And sometimes I do get accused of blaming parents. It's the last thing I want to do.
Mel Robbins (00:14:58):
I don't hear you blaming parents. I
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:14:59):
Hear you talking
Mel Robbins (00:15:00):
Very factually.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:15:01):
No, but there's a very well-known ADHD psychologists who goes on YouTube and says, I blame parents. And I don't actually, I think parents do their best. They love their kids, but their best is limited by their own particular challenges and limitations. There's no parent blaming here, but we have to recognize the importance and impact of early experiences. So what I'm saying is that ADHD is a result of all that stress and its impact on the brains of especially genetically sensitive kids. What's inherited is the sensitivity. But if there was only the sensitivity and optimal conditions, they'd never have ADHD. So it's not the ADHD that's inherited, it's the sensitivity. That's the good news, because if you were a parent with a kid with a H adhd, and if I was the doctor and I said to you, Madam, your kid's got this genetic condition, brain biology, not that we can do about it, but here's some medication. What if I said to you, Mel, your child's got this condition. Your child's very sensitive, very responsive to the environment. And even now at age eight or age 16 or whenever, if we can create different conditions,
(00:16:14):
The brain can still develop in different ways. Which message would you rather go with
Mel Robbins (00:16:18):
The second?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:16:18):
Yeah, of course. This is a much more optimistic and much more science-based added attitude. But unfortunately, again, given the dominance of pharmaceutical companies and the biological mindedness or what they call biological psychiatry, which is just fixating on the biology and fixing it rather than looking at the conditions that shaped the biology, we are very much stuck in a state where hundreds of thousands and millions of kids are being medicated. And I'm not against medications. I prescribe them, I've taken them, but they're not the answer.
Mel Robbins (00:16:52):
What's fascinating is that when you really wrap your brain around it, it makes a lot of sense, and I'm sure you're familiar with that metaphor. It's not the most elegant metaphor that the genetics loads the gun, but the environment that pulls the trigger, which means you come into this world predisposed to certain things, but it's the environment that either deactivates or activates what you're predisposed to
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:17:17):
Exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:17:18):
So that makes perfect sense. And the other thing that makes perfect sense in terms of my lived experience is being diagnosed with ADHD late in life, and also having a son and two daughters that have ADHD. We were in Boston in a very competitive public school system in the go, go, go. Both spouses working, running to the club sports, doing this, doing that. Busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. When we moved to Southern Vermont, open space,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:17:50):
Amazing things change.
Mel Robbins (00:17:53):
You
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:17:53):
Change. That's what I'm saying,
Mel Robbins (00:17:54):
Because the environment changes. And if you just think about being on vacation, you leave the go, go, go, go of your day to day and your work and your social and all that stuff, and you step away to a space that typically has a little bit more open space and a different pace to your life, you change.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:18:14):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:18:14):
And so I feel, I was about to ask you, well, why does this matter to know this? But I feel that it matters deeply because if environmental conditions can shape your brain as a child, and we know that the brain develops and grows and changes through neuroplasticity through your entire life, then environmental changes I suppose, also help you change and address these conditions.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:18:41):
Absolutely. And so when a family with ADHD child would come to me once I had this recognition, I would say, well, we could consider medication in the short term if we need to, but it's not the first step. It's never should be the only step. Can we look at the family atmosphere? Can we look at the relationship between the parents? Can we look at the stresses in the family? Can you understand the child's behavior in a way that doesn't blame the child? These kids tend to be blamed a lot for how they behave. Now we talk about this phase acting out. Kids are acting out, which usually means they're being obstreperous, oppositional, defiant, or non-cooperative or rude or something.
Mel Robbins (00:19:24):
It means they're not doing what the parent wants 'em to do.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:19:26):
Yeah, but let's look at the phrase acting out is English, meaning we act something out when we don't have the language to say it in words. So in the game of charades, but you're not allowed to speak. What do you have to do?
(00:19:38):
Act it out. You have to act out. These kids' behaviors are simply acting out their emotional needs and dynamics. It's up to the parents to understand that rather than just to respond or react to the behavior in a controlling or punitive way, let's understand what is being acted out, which is one of the reasons I wrote that book is I want parents to understand what is being acted out in this child's behavior. And if you change the relationship to the child, the child's behavior will change. So it's not behavior control. It's actually promoting different conditions that'll support the child's healthy development.
Mel Robbins (00:20:13):
This reminds me of something that's always really just made me feel very heartbroken about the state of society and the world, particularly in the United States. And that is when I was going through this experience where my husband and I were having our son go through the process of all the evaluations, the school kept saying, this is behavioral, behavioral. And we were like, I don't think so. I don't think so. And so we were in a position to be able to have him tested here in Boston at Mass General outside the school. And just three years prior, we would not have been able to afford to do that.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:20:57):
I understand.
Mel Robbins (00:20:58):
And that diagnosis and understanding that his brain and the way that he learned and the development of his brain was just different.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:21:08):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:21:09):
And changed the trajectory of his life and my life before I did what I do. Now. My earlier in my career, I was a public defender in Manhattan.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:21:21):
I read that
Mel Robbins (00:21:21):
Doing criminal defense work, the statistics of people who are incarcerated
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:21:30):
With ADHD.
Mel Robbins (00:21:31):
Yes. With ADHD, with learning differences who are never diagnosed, who, when you trace it back to what you're saying, childhood conditions, a parent who is absent chronic racism, which is a form of trauma, it makes very depressing and sad and unfair sense.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:21:52):
Absolutely.
Mel Robbins (00:21:52):
And I think a lot about the fact that it's simply because we were able to, at that moment in our lives, to be able to afford a test that sent him in one direction. When kids who don't have that are sent in a different
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:22:08):
One, but actually hurting people for having been hurt, and then they act out, that hurt, and then we blame them for it rather than understand what that's all about. Let me say something else. The diagnosis doesn't explain anything.
Mel Robbins (00:22:23):
What do you mean the diagnosis doesn't mean anything?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:22:25):
So male or gab or have ADHD. How do we know? Well, they have poor and post regulation and they're hyperactive. Why are they absent-minded? And of course, impulse regulation. And why do they have activity? Because they have HD. How do we know they have HD? Because they're hyperactive. They tune out and they have impulse control. Why do they? It's circular. It's not an explanation. It's a description. And we mistake. Medical practice tends to mistake descriptions for explanations. They're not, if you want to know why they're hyperactive or lacking pro-regulation or tend to two not, you got to look at their lives as those lives acted on their genes. That's the explanation. The diagnosis describes something, but it doesn't explain anything.
Mel Robbins (00:23:23):
But understanding this helps you also understand the role that environment.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:23:28):
Oh yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:23:28):
And how this happened.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:23:29):
I think descriptions are helpful. We just mustn't mistake them for explanations. That's all.
Mel Robbins (00:23:35):
That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned addiction, and there is a lot of research that shows a direct link between ADHD and addiction. And what is your research and experience show about your childhood experience and conditions and the connection to addiction?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:23:58):
So for 12 years, I worked in Vancouver, British Columbia, downtown East side, which is North America's most concentrated area of drug use. We have more drug users there in a few squa block radius than anywhere in the states or anywhere else in Canada. In fact, anywhere in Europe. Wow. I was there for 12 years and a significant percentage of my patients, clearly at ADHD that had not been diagnosed. Now let's look at the commonalities. First of all, both addicts and people with adhd lack impulse control, like somebody said about addiction. Is that the problem is not free will not lack of, no. The problem is in addiction is not lack of free will, but lack of a free won't.
Mel Robbins (00:24:41):
Lack of a free, oh,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:24:45):
They have nothing to say no with because that circuitry didn't develop.
(00:24:49):
Okay, number one. Number two, addictions all work on the dopamine system, which is what is affected in ADHD as well. So stimulant addicts like crystal meth addicts, cocaine addicts, nicotine addicts, caffeine addicts, they're literally boosting their dopamine levels, which is precisely what's the issue in ADHD is as well. So if you look at the studies, something like a good 30% or more of Stillman addicts actually are diagnosable with ADHD. But again, this is studied and reported, but not much is done with it in medical practice. Furthermore, all addictions, no matter what they are, they work on a dopamine circuitry so that I will define addiction for you as manifested in any behavior in which a person finds temporary relief or pleasure and therefore craves, but then suffers negative consequences as a result of and doesn't give up despite the harm. So craving pleasure, relief in the short term harm, inability to give it up. That's when an addiction is.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:26:02):
Lemme just go sideways a little bit. Let me ask you a question, and you've already answered it, but according to that, notice I didn't say anything about drugs. I said any
Mel Robbins (00:26:11):
Behavior.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:26:12):
Now, if I speak the room of a thousand people and I give that definition and I say, I'll go into that definition, which is not controversial. If you ever had an addictive pattern in your life, just raise your hand. And out of 1,999, we raise their hands and there's one liar who won't. But basically it's almost everybody. Now, here's the second question, and I don't care what your addictive patterns were, whether they were to alcohol, which you mentioned, or to whatever else. No, what was wrong with it, but what was right about it? What did it give you in the short term that you wanted? So what did it give you?
Mel Robbins (00:26:52):
Oh, well, with alcohol, it was like a sense of belonging and relief, and it was a way to turn my brain off and to escape.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:27:00):
Okay, when do people need to escape?
Mel Robbins (00:27:02):
When they're stressed.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:27:03):
When they're suffering,
Mel Robbins (00:27:04):
Yeah.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:27:05):
Okay. So the addiction wasn't a disease that you had, it wasn't your primary problem. It was an attempt to solve the problem of emotional pain and isolation. So my mantra under addiction is don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain? And if you want to understand the pain, look at the person's life rather than just their genes. And so both people are addicted, and people who with DHD often share this genes for sensitivity, which means they suffer more when circumstances aren't right. And so obviously the conditions will go together. And for them were to go back to dopamine, the shopping addict, the gambling addict, the pornography addict,
Mel Robbins (00:27:53):
The social media addict,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:27:54):
The social media. And I have had my behavior
Mel Robbins (00:27:56):
Addiction, the gaming addiction addict, the busyness.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:27:59):
You know what they're after? They're after a hit of dopamine in the brain, which they get to seeking that behavior.
Mel Robbins (00:28:05):
And then you feel bad though that you did it
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:28:07):
Well, yeah, and I had my behavior addictions, but what I'm saying is it's all based partly on the dopamine circuitry and
Mel Robbins (00:28:15):
Which didn't develop,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:28:16):
Which didn't develop the way it should have
Mel Robbins (00:28:17):
Because of your childhood.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:28:18):
Exactly. So now you have to get your dopamine hit through pornography. And if you do brain scans on pornography addicts, they get multiple spikes of dopamine hits in their brain when they're
Mel Robbins (00:28:28):
Just like a drug addict.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:28:29):
Yeah. So
Mel Robbins (00:28:31):
What do you do with this information? Because it makes perfect sense. I don't know how this would be controversial. It makes absolutely perfect sense. What do you do if you're listening to this and you either you are recognizing this is you, or you're like, you are describing my spouse or my adult child, or my parent or whomever in my life. What do you do with this particular information of the connection between childhood conditions and development and ADHD and addiction?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:29:03):
May I just say one more thing about the brain,
Mel Robbins (00:29:05):
Please.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:29:06):
Yeah, opiates.
Mel Robbins (00:29:08):
Okay.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:29:08):
So people get addicted to heroin or Oxycontin or Dilaudid, hydromorphone or coine or whatever, fentanyl, unfortunately, which is a very dangerous one. These are opiates. They come from the opium plant in Afghanistan, or they're human manufactured copies of the same molecule. Now why do, and it's responsible for a lot of deaths in this country. Now, why do opiates, why does a plant from Afghanistan work in the human brain here in the states?
Mel Robbins (00:29:45):
I don't know.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:29:46):
Well, because the opiate molecule, we have receptors for it in our brains, which means we have our internal opiate system. This is just pure brain science and the opiate system, it's called endorphins. Endorphin means endogenous internal morphine-like substance. So we have an opiate system in our bodies, which affects many functions in our body from the gut to the immune system. But what do they do in the brain? If we understand opiate addiction, we have to understand what do endorphins do in the human trajectory? First of all, they provide pain relief, both physical and emotional pain relief. Internal endorphins do that. We have to have pain in life because without pain, we don't survive because we can hurt ourselves, but we also have pain relief. So endorphins relieve pain, but not just physical pain, also emotional pain because the part of the brain where people experience physical pain, the suffering of physical pain, it's also where they experience the suffering of emotional pain. So the endorphins, the opiates work there, that's their first role. The second role along with dopamine is to give you a sense of pleasure, elation, and joy. But that's rather important in human life because human life is difficult. So we have to have some expectation of pleasure, joy, relief. That's what the opiates do. That's the second thing they do. But the third thing they do, they facilitate a little thing called love endorphins help to feel as connected to other people. And particularly they help feel parents connected to their kids
(00:31:29):
Without which the child doesn't survive. And if you take little animals and you knock out their opiate receptors, they will not call for their mothers on separation. What would that do to them? It would kill them in the wild. So that's how important the opiates are. Now, who are these people that develop opiate addictions? Peoples whose lives have undermined their opiate circuitry? And I had a sex trade worker in the downtown east side of Vancouver. I asked her, what did the heroin do for you? She said, the first time I did heroin, it felt like a warm soft hug. So just like the alcohol, which gave you a more sense of belonging, it gave her a sense of being loved, a sense of warmth. That's why people get addicted is because they suffered that early pain and they're trying to escape from. And because their brain circuitry was affected by adverse conditions so that these circuits didn't develop optimally, now they have to substitute. So that's the shiny on addiction. It's not an inherited disease. It's a response to the environment. And it's not genetic. Contrary to 99% of physicians believe
Mel Robbins (00:32:40):
The reason why this is so important is because there is so much shame and self blame when you have an addiction or you have something that you're struggling with like ADHD. And when you understand the brain circuitry and the connection to brain development and human development and childhood conditions and experiences, and how that has a direct impact on the working and wiring of the functioning of your brain, you can separate yourself as a human being from the thing that caused this.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:33:16):
That's the whole point.
Mel Robbins (00:33:16):
And then that allows you from that moment of separation and detachment and objectivity to go, oh, wait a minute.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:33:24):
I'm
Mel Robbins (00:33:24):
Not to blame for this.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:33:26):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:33:26):
This is a circuitry and a conditioning problem.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:33:30):
It's my responsibility.
Mel Robbins (00:33:31):
And now it's my responsibility
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:33:32):
Exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:33:33):
To do what I need to do with this to heal it and make it better.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:33:39):
Exactly right. And to go back to your question about now, what do we do with this information? If you're parents, if you are parents of a child who's been diagnosed with say ADHD, then make a considered decision about whether you want a kid medicated or not. Medications can sometimes help. Sometimes they cause side effects. No child should be forced to be on medication because no child at any age should get the message that they're only acceptable to the adults when their brain is sedated. You don't want to give that message to any child, but they can help sometimes to mitigate symptoms.
(00:34:16):
They do nothing for brain development in the long term. So then the question is, can we create in this family better conditions for that child's brain to develop in more optimal ways? And yes, we can. And that has a lot to do with the emotional atmosphere in the family and the degree of understanding and connection, not love, because that's already there. But the actually understanding and connection between the parents and the child, and I mean, that book's been out 25 years, and I've been told by so often that it totally changed the family just to read that book. And it totally changed their children.
Mel Robbins (00:34:51):
Well, it's very empowering because I think if you're the person struggling with the addiction or ADHD or a condition like that, you feel deficient. You feel that you've done something wrong. That's right. And you can never heal while you're punishing yourself at the same
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:35:07):
Time. And the world is punishing you. Teachers are punishing you.
Mel Robbins (00:35:11):
It's true.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:35:12):
Your parents are exasperated with you when it comes to treating addiction, then it's very complex. But the person, again, needs to understand there's nothing wrong with them. They weren't born with any kind of disease, that the addiction is a perfectly normal response to abnormal circumstances. I mean, look at all the veterans who are traumatized and they become alcoholics or opiate
Mel Robbins (00:35:37):
Addicts. And then there's the opposite study about the veterans from Vietnam who were using opioids in Vietnam
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:35:45):
Over there,
Mel Robbins (00:35:46):
But then came home to a supportive environment.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:35:49):
Exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:35:50):
And were not addicted.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:35:51):
Exactly. I quote that study in my book on addiction because it's such a salient fact. In fact, it's been done with laboratory rats where they took laboratory rats and exposed them to different environmental conditions, and they tried to get them addicted to opioids. Now, those rats that were stretched and isolated and under adverse conditions, they easily became addicted to opioids. The rats who had good conditions, you couldn't even make them addicted to opioids. It doesn't matter how much you gave them.
Mel Robbins (00:36:23):
But the main thing is, is that if the environment is actually creating the conditions in your brain and body for addiction and ADHD, then the environment is a huge piece of you healing this and growing in new ways and figuring out new adaptations for how to heal
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:36:43):
Well. And I think it's not an individual process. It should be, for the most part, it should be you need the social help. That's what the 12 step groups are, or
(00:36:51):
I have my critiques of them. But the 12 steps themselves I think are wonderful. And the group process is wonderful, where people can share themselves and be heard compassionately and not be shamed. They can declare their so-called dysfunctions and be accepted. So I think it's not just an individual process, but I think what's missing from the 12 segments, unfortunately, is awareness of trauma, which is interesting because Bill W, the original fund, it was an abandoned child, highly traumatized. And for some reason, trauma hasn't entered the conversation of the twist of movement as much as I'd like to see it done. But again, healing should not be just seen as an individual process. It should be seen as a social process. And people that deal with addictions, they need to understand trauma.
Mel Robbins (00:37:45):
What do you think is missing from the conversation that women need to know when it comes to diagnosing and supporting women who are largely getting latent life diagnoses of ADHD?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:37:57):
Yeah, I have to think here. I think what happens is women get older. They tend to get a bit less repressed. And the tendencies that are in them that they've tried to control in order to be acceptable and to fit in, it becomes intolerable for them, particularly perimenopause. It becomes a real chore for women to continue to fit the stereotype in which they were molded. So I think whatever's in them is more likely to show up. And I would say to them, what I say to anybody get about what is being manifested in this condition.
Mel Robbins (00:38:41):
In your book, hungry Ghosts, you mention your own struggles with addictions to praise even to classical music,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:38:49):
Not to the music, sorry, to shopping for classical music.
Mel Robbins (00:38:52):
Oh,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:38:53):
There's a distinction.
Mel Robbins (00:38:54):
Yes,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:38:55):
I love the music, but that doesn't make me an addict. That just means me a music lover. It's the shopping. I would drop $3,000 in a music store and go back two hours later. I had to get the next one. Typical addictive behavior. So it's the shopping that I was addicted to. It's not the having, but to the acquisition. You know what? When I was in the classical music store, I know DHDI had high dopamine levels. I was focused. I can almost remember which record did I buy in which store, or which CD that I, so just to make the distinction, it's not the music, it's the shopping I was addicted to.
Mel Robbins (00:39:33):
I love that distinction. I can relate to it. I think in the biggest moments of crisis in my life facing bankruptcy, literally about to lose it all. If I had a tiny bit of money, I would go to the mall as an escape. And I would say, given that daily addiction, whether it's the mom pouring a couple glasses of wine at night, or it is just scrolling for three hours, or it is mindlessly shopping or whatever it may be.
(00:40:05):
What strategies have you found most effective in really either controlling or managing through these tendencies or patterns of behavior that so many of us have?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:40:19):
Well, here's why we have to make a distinction between drug addictions and behavior addictions. Cause drug addictions become a very chemical, chemical problem, and people go through withdrawal, and that has to be managed and all that. Now, the behavior addict, by the way, also go through withdrawal, but it's less noticeable. Like with my work addiction, my work holism, when I was at home, I'd be irritable and depressed. That's withdrawal because the dopamine wasn't flowing. But obviously it's more easily manageable. So I'd say two things. One is let's look at the need that is serving in your life.
Mel Robbins (00:40:58):
What is the need it is serving in your life?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:41:01):
Yeah,
Mel Robbins (00:41:01):
Well, doom scrolling. For me, the need is to tune out.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:41:04):
No, that's not the need. What is the need for tuning out, serving your life?
Mel Robbins (00:41:09):
Oh boy.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:41:11):
Scrolling out is
Mel Robbins (00:41:12):
This, oh, I have no joy, play or relaxation.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:41:17):
Okay, so you don't know how to, you're not comfortable with yourself. You can't just be. You have to be doing, and your attention has to be external. But that goes back to early childhood. It means that you weren't comfortable and you developed that comfort with yourself. You develop that sense of your own goodness and validity. And so that when you're alone and you're not doing something, there's distress and your mind is going all over the place. So that's the need that it's serving. So then you say, well, meeting this need to escape from myself. How can I learn to be with myself? So what techniques, what could I do? And there's ways to do that. I mean, I have many suggestions in my books, but essentially it's recognizing the need that's being met. Not invalidating the need, validating the need, but recognizing that the behavior itself only temporarily soos it, but it doesn't meet the need.
Mel Robbins (00:42:19):
Well, I feel like I've been fixing the wrong problem
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:42:21):
Because
Mel Robbins (00:42:22):
I'm focused on don't drink the drink, don't pick up the phone. And what you're saying is, no, no, no. You're like over here looking at this thing. There's a deeper issue about just learning to be with yourself, about learning to be in the five to 7:00 PM time zone and be okay with all that comes up and know that you can move through it without pouring a drink.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:42:45):
That's the whole point. There's nothing wrong with saying, don't drink. I mean all that. It's only that it doesn't deal with the fundamental need. So let's recognize the need. Those needs are valid. You need for social contact or not being isolated. And in your book, when you experience a certain degree of social isolation, which you interpret it as rejection, and your husband points out, you're not being rejected. They're just something else. But your childhood programming tells you that it's rejected.
Mel Robbins (00:43:13):
It's true.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:43:15):
Does
Mel Robbins (00:43:15):
Everything come back to our childhood?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:43:16):
Yes, pretty much. That's when we're shaped. Look, have you ever had a puppy dog?
Mel Robbins (00:43:22):
Yes. Two.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:43:24):
Okay, well, tell me about them. I mean, how you treat that puppy, will that not define to a significant degree what kind of creature they're going to be?
Mel Robbins (00:43:31):
It's true.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:43:32):
Yeah. Well, human beings are infinitely more complex than puppy dogs. And it's totally true. So what I'm saying is recognize the need, validate the need, but then ask the question, okay, how can I meet that need in ways that are not harmful?
Mel Robbins (00:43:49):
One of the things that you're talking a lot about is the connection between childhood conditions and experiences, how they shape you and the significant rise in autoimmune disorders and diseases. In women,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:44:04):
There are 80 of people, 80% of autoimmune disease, which are diseases where the immune system attacks the body that is supposed to protect.
Mel Robbins (00:44:11):
And what are a few examples of an autoimmune disease?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:44:15):
Multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus, probably fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, forms of psoriasis, autoimmune eczema, scleroderma,
Mel Robbins (00:44:32):
I
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:44:32):
Could go on and on. There's about a hundred or so of these. And 80% of them happen to women.
Mel Robbins (00:44:37):
Why?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:44:38):
Well, so in my medical practice, I began to notice, and here's my advantage over my specialist colleagues, is that they know a lot more about certain body parts and systems as they should, but they don't know the patient. I knew people before they got sick,
(00:44:56):
And I knew them in their context of their families of origin and the extended family very often. So I got to see who got sick and who didn't. And when I was in palliative care, again, I saw who ended up in palliative care and who didn't. And these people had four significant characteristics. One is they tended to put other people's emotional needs ahead of their own, and they tend to ignore their own, number one. Number two, they tended to identify with rule, duty, role and responsibility rather than the needs of the self. Number three, they tended to be very nice, which means they repressed healthy anger. The healthy anger is a boundary defense. And these tended people tend to be very nice. And number four, these people tended to believe that they're responsible for other people feel, which is a point that you address in your book, let them. And that they had this belief that there was never disappoint anybody.
(00:45:58):
Now, those beliefs legion to not saying no to the demands of the world, and you're constantly taking on stuff and stress and other people's stress. You get stressed. That stress undermines the immune system, which then turns against you. Now, and I could explain the physiology of it. And by the way, people, because the immune system and the hormonal apparatus and the nervous system and the emotional system are one system, they're not separate. They're wired together in a whole lot of chemical and neurological ways. I'm not making this up. This is science. Science is called psychoimmunology, where psychology and neurology, immunology and endocrinology, the hormones, it's all one system. People that repress healthy anger, they're suppressing their immune system. Biologically, no. If you understand that, it's all one system. And if you ask why, well, what is the role of healthy anger? It's a boundary defense. What is the role of the immune system? It's a boundary defense. It's meant to let in what is good and nurture and keep up what is toxic and dangerous. When you're suppressing your emotions, you're also messing with immune system because it's all one.
Mel Robbins (00:47:19):
It's almost like you're training your immune system not to protect you from the outside.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:47:25):
That's what happens. Or to turn against you, like anger you repress turns against you in a form of depression or self-loathing.
Mel Robbins (00:47:32):
The same way that your negative thoughts where you think you're to blame for all of the stuff going on when you're a child that are not your responsibility, turns into the negative that's aimed against you.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:47:44):
Same way the immune system turns against you.
Mel Robbins (00:47:46):
Wow.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:47:46):
That's the
Mel Robbins (00:47:47):
Whole point. That makes so much sense.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:47:48):
Well, physiologically is just a fact. No, why is it women? Because who in this culture is programmed to always looking after everybody's emotional needs, taking everybody's stresses, identify with their duties and their role, be nice all the time, not be angry in a healthy way, and to take responsibility for other people's feelings. It's women. It's not a gender issue. It's a cultural issue. And of course, the more stress the women experiences, the greater the risk of autoimmune disease. So if you look at minority women, they have a higher percentage cause they're women and they're a minority in
Mel Robbins (00:48:27):
Campus. I was just about to ask you whether or not there were studies for minority women and people that are in first responder
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:48:34):
Roles. Many studies, many studies. And in Canada
Mel Robbins (00:48:38):
It makes sense
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:48:39):
In Canada, in indigenous women, six times the rate of rheumatoid arthritis than somebody else. And this is in a population that never used to have rheumatoid arthritis.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:48:50):
And by the way, again, are we blaming people here? No, we're not. We have to look at what happened here. What happened here is the child is born with all these emotions wired into their brains. The child has two big needs here. The need for attachment, for belonging, for being held, for being accepted, supported and so on. That's a need that you have. It's not negotiable without it as an infant, as a young child, you die. You die. Yeah. So there's one need, but you have another need as well, which I call authenticity, which means being connected to your emotions and your gut feelings. Now, in any audience, when I ask people, have you had the experience of having a strong gut feeling about something, ignoring it and being sorry afterwards, most people put their hands up. You probably would. No gut feelings were programed into us by evolution. We evolved out in nature for millions of years, hundreds of thousands of years, we lived out in nature. How long does any creature in nature survive if they don't pay attention to their gut feelings?
Mel Robbins (00:49:52):
Not until the end of the day you're a goner.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:49:55):
That's the point. So we have this two need attachment and authenticity being connected to ourselves. Now, if the child gets the message that they're being authentic with their emotions and so on, they're not acceptable to the environment. Guess what? Be the contest between, oh,
Mel Robbins (00:50:13):
You get trained to not trust your instincts,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:50:15):
And you're trained to disconnect and you're trained to push down your feelings. So we give up our authenticity for the sake of attachment. Now, in your book, there's an example of this guy who's about to get married and he's got all these misgivings, and then he's afraid of what everybody else will think. And you're wishing he would say no to the wedding. What's going on? He's stuck in this tension between attachment, which doesn't need to be acceptable, and authenticity being himself. Women are caught in that trap in the society. So are many men. Of course, it's not just a gender issue, but overwhelmingly it's women who have to choose the attachment. They're being acceptable over authenticity. That's why they have much more autoimmune disease.
Mel Robbins (00:50:59):
And often I'd say for a lot of us, we choose attachment rather than staying connected to ourselves.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:51:08):
That's the whole point. As a child, you have no choice. The question is, as an adult, can we develop that choice? Do I have to keep choosing the attachment over the authenticity? And I'm telling you, I know people, I just finished leading a workshop at Crip Hollow nearby here. Two women came up to me and said, reading your book, when the body says no, cured my ms, because I began to say no. Now I know so many examples of that. And not only other doctors as well.
Mel Robbins (00:51:38):
Well, you also hear doctors say that all of these autoimmune disorders, diseases, whatever you want to call them, flare up in moments of stress.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:51:45):
Of course
Mel Robbins (00:51:45):
In moments of overwhelm. And the main thing that they're treated with is
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:51:50):
Steroids.
Mel Robbins (00:51:50):
Yes. And take better care of yourself
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:51:54):
And
Mel Robbins (00:51:55):
Rest.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:51:56):
No, but here's what's interesting. Typically for these conditions, we give cortisol
Mel Robbins (00:52:01):
A stress hormone.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:52:02):
Yeah. If you go into the dermatology with an inflamed skin, they're going to give you a steroid cream. Cortisol. If you go to a gastroenterologist with an inflamed intestine, they'll at some point give you a cortisol stress hormone. If you go with an inflamed nervous system, multiple sclerosis, they're going to give you a stress hormone. Cortisol, I could go on, but we never ask ourselves, gosh, we're giving stress hormones to people. Is it possible that stress may have something to do with their condition? So doctors know that in cases of acute stress that can flare up a disease that's clear. What they don't recognize is those emotional patterns that I'm talking about, which stress people chronically, but in less dramatic ways. What's it like to always having to repress your anger to be pleasing other people?
Mel Robbins (00:52:49):
Exhausting.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:52:50):
That's the whole point. And that's what the stress that I think often instigates.
Mel Robbins (00:52:54):
You've abandoned yourself and now your body function is abandoning you.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:52:58):
That's the whole point.
Mel Robbins (00:52:59):
Is there good news here?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:53:00):
Yeah. The good news is if you change these patterns, you can actually significantly affect the course of your illness.
Mel Robbins (00:53:05):
And
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:53:05):
I know lots of examples of that.
Mel Robbins (00:53:08):
How can someone find the root cause of the emotional pain or the how do you begin the process of healing? Because you've now painted this landscape that helps us really understand the connection between experiences and conditioning, how that shapes your body, your brain function, your physiology, your immune system, and how continued environmental stress and continued abandonment of self for the sake of being accepted to by other people.
(00:53:44):
When you see all this, it's incredibly empowering. What is one step that you would want someone to take if they're having an awakening or they've been sent this episode by somebody who loves them and they're like, this is me.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:00):
Okay, so let's take one example, a simple one. Prior to your awakening and transformational journey that you undertook sometime in your forties, how easy did you find it to say no to other people's expectations?
Mel Robbins (00:54:19):
Oh, I couldn't.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:20):
Okay, so you couldn't say no.
Mel Robbins (00:54:21):
No.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:22):
Alright. So I ask people this question, where in your life do you have difficulty saying no? It shows up in two areas, work and in personal life. Okay, so you couldn't say no. The second question I ask people then is what was the impact on you or of your difficulty saying, no, it's
Mel Robbins (00:54:39):
A exhausting, I don't like my own behavior.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:43):
Yeah. So it's this shame.
Mel Robbins (00:54:45):
Lack of control.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:47):
Loss of control. Loss of control. By the way,
Mel Robbins (00:54:48):
Anger,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:50):
Blaming
Mel Robbins (00:54:50):
Other people and making it their fault. That I can't say no.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:54:54):
That's right. And loss of control is one of the most significant triggers for stress, by the way, according to the stress literature.
Mel Robbins (00:55:01):
Well, that makes sense because we have a biological hardwired need for safety.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:55:06):
Exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:55:07):
Which we try to achieve by controlling everything and everyone around us.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:55:10):
Only because we learned in childhood that if we didn't, there'd be no safety. If we learned that there was safety, we would trust the world a lot more and we wouldn't have to control. So nobody's a control freak. Nobody's born a control freak. It's an adaptive trait, is what that is. But here's what I'm saying. So that going through this exercise, so what's the impact You've identified some impacts, could also be frequent calls, illness, and so on. The third question is what you believe that keeps you from saying no? So when you had trouble saying No, what's the story? What was the belief? If
Mel Robbins (00:55:44):
I said that I would get fired from my job and then we wouldn't be able to pay our bills, and then we would lose our house and then on and on and on and on and on. Or they wouldn't like me or my mother would be mad at me or this would happen or that would happen. The weight of the world on my shoulders.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:55:58):
Exactly. So then the fourth question is, how did you develop that story that if I say no, I'll be rejected? Where did you learn that?
Mel Robbins (00:56:11):
I'm sure. For me, even though I don't quite remember it, was that I had, it was my job to make sure everybody was okay in the house and everybody was
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:56:20):
Happy.
Mel Robbins (00:56:22):
That's what you learned it when you, and that made me feel safe.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:56:24):
In other words, you learned it when you're two or three or four years old or five, and now you're adult, as you're say in
Mel Robbins (00:56:30):
My book. That's why this has been such a game changer, because when I say let them, I separate
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:56:37):
Someone
Mel Robbins (00:56:37):
Else's emotions and their expectations from what's my responsibility.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:56:41):
You're choosing authenticity over attachment is what you're doing.
Mel Robbins (00:56:45):
Oh, I love that. You're right. I'm staying connected to myself.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:56:48):
That's the whole game. That's what I'm talking about here. So once you understand that, you learn the story when you were hypnotized into it as by the way, three or four year olds are in hypnotic states. That's why they believe that when they're playing monsters, they're actually monsters.
(00:57:05):
So those hypnotic influences are really powerful. They stay with us. So then the next question is, who would you be if didn't believe that you mustn't say no? Who would you be then
Mel Robbins (00:57:17):
Free.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:18):
Exactly. Do that exercise once a week.
Mel Robbins (00:57:22):
Five questions
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:24):
To freedom. It's in the myth of normal. There's a chapter on it. There's a sixth
Mel Robbins (00:57:27):
Question. What is a sixth question?
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:29):
Well, you're not saying yes.
Mel Robbins (00:57:31):
Oh my God. Everywhere to free time to play.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:35):
Yeah,
Mel Robbins (00:57:36):
To joy to,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:37):
Yeah. Creativity.
Mel Robbins (00:57:38):
Creativity to rest.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:41):
Well, that not saying yes is as harmful as the not saying no. So those two little words, just that little exercise, you do that once a week, it changes people's lives.
Mel Robbins (00:57:54):
The sixth question.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:57:55):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:57:56):
What are you not saying? Yes to that one made my heart contract a little.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:58:02):
Okay.
Mel Robbins (00:58:02):
Because that's where I really saw truly what I'm missing out on.
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:58:08):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:58:09):
Where are you not saying yes
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:58:11):
To play? And the rest? I mean, I'm much better than I used to be. As a matter of fact, I've told this story many times, but five years ago I was in London giving a talk on my book When the Body Says No, and I was very articulate and adept on stage, but personally, I was irritated. I was working too hard. I was driving myself too hard. I was not kind to my wife. And she said to me, her name is Ray. And she said, buddy, you've written a book called When The Body says, no. No, you better why I Won Call when the wife says No. So part of what's helped me drop these patterns, and I'm still working on it, is I love this relationship when I'm be in it. And I don't want to be this person who's not saying, yes, I'm an 80. Again, when you look at the Top Five Regrets of Dying People, that book that I mentioned in another conversation, this is written by a palliative care nurse who worked with dying people. The top regret was that I didn't have the courage to be myself. And the third regret was I didn't have courage to express my emotions. And the fifth regret was, and I neglected my friends, the fourth regret. And then the fifth one I think was, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. I wish I had played more. I wish I'd given more scope for the creativity and playfulness and childlike self that I am. So I'm still looking for that one to develop it more.
(00:59:44):
I'm a whole lot better than I used to be.
Mel Robbins (00:59:47):
Well, we're a whole lot better than we used to be because of what we're learning from you. Well,
Dr. Gabor Maté (00:59:52):
Thank you
Mel Robbins (00:59:54):
Gabor Maté. Wow. Any final things you want to say?
Dr. Gabor Maté (01:00:01):
Everybody's got the capacity to heal. As long as there's consciousness, there's the capacity to heal. And for some people it's tougher because they don't have the resources.
(01:00:11):
But you can go on YouTube. Lots of my talks are on YouTube. People have told me that it's changed their lives for the better. Doesn't cost a penny. And not just my talks, by the way, talks by other wonderful teachers, some of my colleagues, some spiritual teachers. That doesn't cost any money to watch that. You can take books out of the library that doesn't cost a penny, and they can be very helpful. You can learn to meditate and be with yourself and observe your mind. That can be very helpful. There's free meditation instruction on the line or in many books, those people that can afford therapy, if it's the right kind of therapy, they can address these issues. They can connect with nature. Nature has got a huge healing capacity as our indigenous people really know. We can learn a lot from them about connecting with nature.
(01:01:08):
Those people that have the capacity to get out of the city or even go to a park and connect with the plants and the trees and the flowers. That sounds hokey, but it's hugely healing exercise, giving your body what it needs, eating the proper food if you can afford it. And most people may not be able to afford the best foods, but they could probably afford to eat better than do if they paid attention to themselves. So all those things are not inaccessible. So in other words, healing is possible. It's available to all of us, and it just takes the decision to embark on that path.
Mel Robbins (01:01:49):
Well, you've empowered us to make the decision today.
Dr. Gabor Maté (01:01:52):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:01:52):
Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Dr. Gabor Maté (01:01:55):
Oh, thank you.
Mel Robbins (01:01:56):
It's amazing to spend time with you.
Dr. Gabor Maté (01:01:58):
Yeah, thanks.
Mel Robbins (01:01:59):
There are so many people that I want to share this episode with. I feel empowered and excited for you, and so I just want to thank you for listening all the way to the end and sharing this with people that you love. And I also wanted to be sure to tell you in case no one else tells you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. Listening to this today is certainly going to help you take the steps to create it. I will be waiting for you in the very next episode. I'll see you there. I just want to acknowledge you on YouTube for watching all the way to the end. This was extraordinary, wasn't it? I mean, I wish I had had this information 25 years ago, but I'm so grateful that you have this information and I have this information now.
(01:02:50):
So thank you for sharing it. Thank you for watching all the way to the end, and thank you for hitting subscribe. It's my goal that 50% of the people that watch this channel are subscribers because it supports the show, it tells our team that you love the content that we're putting out, and it helps us bring you new videos every single day. And speaking of new videos, I'm sure you're thinking, oh my gosh, I love this. What should I watch next? Mel, you should check this out. You're going to absolutely love it. It's the perfect thing to watch, and I'm going to be waiting for you as soon as you hit play.
Key takeaways
Your childhood experiences shape how your brain develops, and stressful early conditions can directly lead to things like ADHD, addiction, and autoimmune disease later in life.
If you’re struggling with addiction, stop asking what’s wrong with you and start asking, “Why the pain?” because the real issue lives in your past, not your character.
You didn’t inherit ADHD. You inherited sensitivity, and under the wrong conditions that trait becomes a burden, but with the right ones it becomes a strength.
If a child can’t fight back or escape chronic stress, they will adapt by tuning out, and that survival strategy can wire in and get misdiagnosed as a disorder.
ADHD and addiction don’t reflect your weakness, they reflect how your brain was shaped by early emotional stress and your attempts to feel safe, loved, or in control.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Gabor Maté, MD
Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned physician, speaker, and bestselling author specializing in addiction, trauma, and mind-body health.
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Books
In this revolutionary book, renowned physician Gabor Maté eloquently dissects how in Western countries that pride themselves on their healthcare systems, chronic illness and general ill health are on the rise. Nearly 70 percent of Americans are on at least one prescription drug; more than half take two. In Canada, every fifth person has high blood pressure. In Europe, hypertension is diagnosed in more than 30 percent of the population. And everywhere, adolescent mental illness is on the rise. So what is really “normal” when it comes to health?
Resources
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- Depress Anxiety: Childhood Social Environment, Emotional Reactivity to Stress and Mood and Anxiety Disorders across the Life Course
- Harvard University Center on the Developing Child: Early Childhood Mental Health
- Verywell Mind: How Does Your Environment Affect Your Mental Health?
- Psychological Bulletin: Risky families: Family social environments and the mental and physical health of offspring
- The British Journal of Psychiatry: How the environment affects mental health
- Attention Deficit Disorder Association: How To Get Diagnosed With ADHD: 7 Steps For Adults To Get An Accurate Evaluation
- Healthline: Can You Receive an ADHD Diagnosis as an Adult?
- The New York Times: Doctors Are Still Figuring Out Adult A.D.H.D.
- Forbes: Kids With ADHD Have Atypical Brain Wiring, NIH Study Finds
- Forbes: Unlocking the Power Of Neurodiversity: Embracing ADHD Awareness Month
- National Institute of Mental Health: Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
- Mayo Clinic: Adult attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
- Molecular Psychiatry: Genetics of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
- Mayo Clinic: Drug addiction (substance use disorder)
- USA.gov: Find help for substance abuse
- American Addiction Centers: How to Deal With an Addicted Spouse
- The New York Times: 48 Million Americans Live With Addiction. Here’s How to Get Them Help That Works.
- The Surgeon General’s Report on Alcohol, Drugs, and Health: Facing Addiction in America
- The British Journal of Psychiatry: The neurobiology of substance use and addiction: evidence from neuroimaging and relevance to treatment
- Science & Society: Drug addiction: the neurobiology of behavior gone awry
- Stanford Medicine: Stanford Medicine-led study shows why women are at greater risk of autoimmune disease
- Brain, Behavior, and Immunity: Sex differences in the neuro-immune consequences of stress: Focus on depression and anxiety
- International Journal of Neuroscience: Harnessing neuroplasticity: modern approaches and clinical future
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