Episode: 315
What I Wish I Knew in My 20s
with Dr. Meg Jay
If you're feeling behind, lost, or overwhelmed, this conversation will change the way you think about every decade of your life.
Today, Mel sits down with Dr. Meg Jay – clinical psychologist, professor, and bestselling author of THE book about your 20s: The Defining Decade.
This episode is a wake up call, one backed by research and real-life stories, that will help you stop panicking, start problem-solving, and take control of your future, no matter what age you are.
Whether you’re in your 20s, wish you’d done them differently, or love someone going through them, this episode gives you the wisdom and tools you need to build the life you want.
The truth is that no matter what decade of your life you are in, you can make it the best one.
Listen on:
Your twenties are the most defining decade of adulthood, and in many ways, the most difficult decade in adulthood.
Dr. Meg Jay
Transcript
Dr. Meg Jay (00:00:00):
We say, oh, your twenties. These are going to be the best years of your life. Empirically not true. Your twenties are the most difficult decade in Adulthoods. It's a time of a lot of firsts and a lot of worsts. You have your first and worst job, your first and worst relationships, your first and worst breakups. It's a very, very tricky time. The truth is your twenties are,
Mel Robbins (00:00:20):
Oh my gosh. Dr. Meg Jay is here in our Boston studios. Dr. Jay has spent the last two decades in clinical practice working with people in their twenties. She also holds a PhD in clinical psychology from UC Berkeley. The New York Times calls Dr. Jay the patron Saint for 20 somethings because she wrote the seminal and generational defining book. It's called the Defining Decade, about the hardest decade of everyone's life, which is your twenties. Her Ted talk has been viewed more than 17 million times and today she is here to share the advice you have never heard about your twenties. What do you think is wrong about the way the average person, particularly in their twenties, thinks about dating? About half of 20 somethings are unemployed or underemployed? Why do you think so many people are freaked out by those statistics?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:01:12):
Older adults often look at 20 somethings and they think, what do they have to feel so stressed out about?
Mel Robbins (00:01:17):
What do you want to say to someone who's saying, well, I'll just figure this out later. I got plenty of time.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:01:22):
20 somethings feel like they have time to figure it out without maybe fully understanding. It takes time to figure it
Mel Robbins (00:01:29):
Out. I want to shift to something that a lot of people are afraid to talk about or reproduction and family planning.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:01:34):
I'd love to go there.
Mel Robbins (00:01:35):
If the person listening takes just one action today, what do you think the most important thing to do is? Dr. Meg? Jay, I am so excited to welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:01:50):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Mel Robbins (00:01:53):
Well, I know that our conversation is going to be one that is spread all around the world, but I have to say selfishly, I have three kids in their twenties,
Dr. Meg Jay (00:02:04):
So this is for you. It's us.
Mel Robbins (00:02:06):
This is for me
Dr. Meg Jay (00:02:07):
And your listener.
Mel Robbins (00:02:08):
Yes, and for you. You're here with us on YouTube or you are spending time with us right now listening. This is for you as well. Whether you're listening and you're in your twenties or there are people in your life that you care about are you wrote the defining book and that's the perfect word for it because over a decade ago you wrote this book, the Defining Decade, why Your Twenties Matter, and How to Make the Most of Them Now, and we're going to dig into that and your new book, the 20 something Treatment, A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age, but here's where I'd like to start. I would love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now and tell them what they could experience about life that would be different if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us and they put it to use in their life or share it with somebody that they love.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:02:59):
Okay? What will be different is they'll be able to make the most of the decade in front of them no matter what that decade is. It's never too early to live intentionally and courageously, but it's also never too late.
Mel Robbins (00:03:13):
You use the word intentionally. What does it mean to live intentionally?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:03:17):
I think that means thoughtfully being true to yourself, being authentic, thinking about the future while you're also living in the present. So figuring out what am I trying to do with my one life or with my twenties or even with my forties or with my fifties, rather than getting caught up in maybe what everyone else is doing or not paying attention. And then 10 years has passed you by,
Mel Robbins (00:03:38):
I want to read a passage from your mega bestseller, the Defining Decade. Your twenties matter. 80% of life's most defining moments take place by the age of 35. Your earning power is decided in your first 10 years of work. More than half of us are married or dating or living with our future partner by the age of 30. Your brain and your personality change more during your twenties than at any time before or after. Your social network is about as big as it is ever going to get. Your defining decade coincides with your peak childbearing years. Meanwhile, your twenties are the most uncertain years you will ever know. Why do you think so many people are freaked out by those statistics and they don't want to talk about it, not your opinion? Those are the facts,
Dr. Meg Jay (00:04:30):
Right, those are the facts. Definitely not my opinion. I think it comes from a couple of different places culturally, we idealize youth, so we say, oh, your twenties, these are going to be the best years of your life. Empirically not true. We'll talk more about that. We say, oh, your twenties, these are going to be the most carefree years of your life. Empirically not true. We'll talk more about that.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:04:50):
The truth is your twenties are the most defining decade of adulthood and also in many ways the most difficult decade in adulthood. The reason for that is it's a time of a lot of firsts and a lot of worsts. You have your first and worst job, your first and worst relationships, your first and worst breakups. It's a very, very tricky time, and I think older adults often look at 20 somethings and they think, oh, they don't have partners or houses or mortgages or kids. What do they have to feel so stressed out about? But I think what they don't realize is that it's stressful not to have those things and even more importantly, not to know if you ever will.
Mel Robbins (00:05:30):
Oh my gosh. As a parent, you just made me feel sad.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:05:35):
It's hard. It's hard to be a 20 something.
Mel Robbins (00:05:37):
Yeah, well, because I have been guilty of saying, well, you don't have kids. You know what? You can figure it out. You can try anything. You, the world's your oyster. Go do what you want. What do you y'all worked up about? But I'd never really stopped to think about the fear that you might not have those things that you wanted or you might not be able to figure it out.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:05:56):
Right. I've had so many clients and students over the years say, if I knew I was going to have it all, eventually I could get through this time. I don't need it now, but if I knew I was going to have it, I could get through this time so much easier. And of course, we can't see into the future. We just have to create the future as best as we can.
Mel Robbins (00:06:16):
You've also said that the reason why it's so important to recognize that your twenties are your defining decade is because you've spent countless hours with 30 and 40 somethings who are devastated by the price they're paying for the lack of direction, the lack of urgency to use one of your words in their twenties. So what do you want to say to someone who is in their twenties and who's saying, well, I'll just figure this out later. I don't figure this out right now. I got plenty of time.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:06:46):
I think the first thing I would actually not say it would be a question I would ask, what are they waiting for that? I think 20 somethings feel like they have time to figure it out without maybe fully understanding. It takes time to figure it out. So the sooner you start that process, the better. If you try to start figuring everything out in your thirties, you're probably going to be pretty crunched for time. You may not get everything you want. I don't want that to happen, which is why in the defining decade, I don't say you have to have it all figured out by 30. I say, please start figuring it out by 30.
Mel Robbins (00:07:22):
I love that distinction, the distinction of, oh, I have time to figure it out, versus it takes time to figure it out. And so when you're talking to somebody in their twenties, how do you counsel somebody who is freaking out about the fact that they don't have it all figured out and now I start to feel anxious that I don't have it figured out. Now I'm paralyzed by that, and so when somebody feels paralyzed, they don't do anything, which means they're not figuring it out. So how do you counsel somebody to flip from that state of kind of paralysis to it takes time to figure it out, and my point is you need to start getting serious about figuring it out.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:08:04):
Well, we start with something. I think one thing where people go wrong with 20 somethings is that I think they think reassurance and saying, it's fine. You've got all the time in the world. You'll figure it out. Reassurance doesn't actually make people feel better or it makes 'em feel better for about an hour or a day, and then they come back for more. We call clients or 20 somethings like this, people like this, reassurance junkies,
Mel Robbins (00:08:29):
Reassurance junkies?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:08:30):
They're anxious. They get a little hit of reassurance. They feel better for a minute, but then they have to come back for more because reassurance is it's empty. Instead of saying, oh, it's fine, it doesn't matter, you'll be fine. I say, Hey, I'm taking your concerns seriously, so what are we going to do? What are you going to do? Where can you start? Let's start now that that actually makes people better than telling them they'll be fine, is saying, let's make sure you're fine. Let's do something about it.
Mel Robbins (00:09:00):
You said that the twenties are such an uncertain and difficult decade because it's full of firsts and worsts. Yes. And I'd love to have you speak just a little bit to what are some of the things that 20 somethings feel a lot of anxiety about that might surprise somebody who's not in their twenties to hear causes anxiety in that decade of first and worst?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:09:27):
Yeah. I mean, I think really to understand what is so difficult about the twenties is that it's the most uncertain time of life.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:09:36):
So it's probably the only time in your life where everything is uncertain all at the same time. So work is uncertain, love is uncertain, finances are uncertain, the brain is still developing. Emotional stability is still coming together. So I think most of us in thirties or forties or fifties, maybe we have work goes sideways or romance is blowing up, but for 20 somethings, everything is uncertain at worst at once, the brain really hates that. The brain interprets uncertainty is danger. So 20 somethings are walking around in a pretty low level state of sort of chronic stress and anxiety around everything feels dangerous because they don't have those adult sources of safety. So they may feel anxious about, I don't know how to talk to my roommate, so I'm sending them texts instead of saying, Hey, can we have a conversation? Or a big one is I don't know how to talk to my boss and ask for this weekend off that I need for my sister's wedding, or I don't know how to go on a date. I've never kissed anybody before. I've never had sex. I'm worried I'll never be able to pay my bills. They're feeling anxious and worried about just about everything that's uncertain and that's just about everything.
Mel Robbins (00:10:53):
Well, what's interesting is if you've had a child that has gone off to college or gone into the military or gone to a trade school, especially if they leave home, there's this assumption that they're maturing and they're gaining those skills and that by the time they get out of college or trade school or the military, okay, they got it all figured out and what you're making me realize is wait a minute, those are life skills that you don't just stumble upon. You have to have experiences or people in your life that teach you those life skills.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:11:26):
Right, experiences usually, and I have to say college is a whole other conversation. Have me back and we'll talk about that. I have a lot of strong opinions and thoughts and feelings about college, which I love, but people get too hung up on whether to go to college, where to go to college, what to major in. The biggest question in higher education is how to go to college, how to do college. That is what is going to determine whether or not college pays out off for you is how you did it. Not whether you sort of showed up for four years and then got a piece of paper. The most important stuff in college happens between classes. The did you or did you not go to the college center or career center you or did you not go have a conversation with your professor and get more comfortable talking to people in positions of power or learn about an internship, so we can do a whole other show on that.
Mel Robbins (00:12:20):
Well, let's talk about what are five things that people get wrong about college that they need to be doing that make the college experience what it should be or could be?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:12:33):
Number one, go to class people out there? I just gave a talk at UVA orientation a couple days ago and I said, I know all the parents out there. You assume your kids are going to class. I work at UVA. I can tell you I wouldn't be assuming that because with technology it's never been more possible to not go to class, look at the slides, not look at the slides, but going to class, it's just showing up for life. It gets you out of bed. It's like we were talking about with work. It adds structure to your day. You might start to have a relationship with a professor or think, oh, I'm going to go visit that person in office hours. So just going to class is some very low hanging fruit, but an amazing way to start, another piece of advice is to make a calendar.
(00:13:17):
Take all your syllabi, put 'em all in one place. You've got all the classes, all the assignments, all the readings, all the deadlines, all in one place. Most students don't do that. Another one I'll mention, one of the biggest predictors of whether college pays off for people, which is very important to people right now, is whether or not they had an internship in college because the best preparation for work is work.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:13:43):
The best preparation for work is not showing up to a college class in your pajamas and shopping on your laptop, which is frankly what a lot of college students are doing. So no judgment, I'm just saying that will not prepare you for work. So the best preparation for work is work. So I want to see you as a college student having at least one internship, at least one job before you graduate. If you graduate from college and you're looking for your first job, you've done something wrong.
Mel Robbins (00:14:13):
I love this. What else?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:14:17):
I could go on,
Mel Robbins (00:14:18):
Keep going!
Dr. Meg Jay (00:14:18):
All day.
Mel Robbins (00:14:19):
No, keep going about this. What else? Just that visual of showing up in your pajamas and shopping online. It may seem cool to your friends, but it's disrespectful to you, not you the professor, but it's disrespectful to you as the to you consumer and the consumer if somebody else is paying for it, disrespectful to them,
Dr. Meg Jay (00:14:44):
Right, right. Absolutely.
Mel Robbins (00:14:46):
But I think a lot of kids go to college because they think they should, and it's a box to check and their friends are going and they want it to look a certain way on Instagram and they've lost sight of what it's actually meant to do and what it could do until senior year rolls around and uh oh.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:15:03):
I get it. We know I went to college myself and didn't do everything perfectly, but if that's entirely where you're coming from for the four years, you're really not going to be prepared. And I said, the most wonderful thing about working with 20 somethings, they're like planes just after takeoff, very easy to help them course correct. The toughest 20 somethings to work with are the ones whose lives never took off after college so that they didn't even get the lift off because then you're having to create that.
Mel Robbins (00:15:33):
Well in your new bestselling book, the 20 something Treatment I'm reading on page 76, you say, let's clear something up. Contrary to what popular culture and social media may suggest, your twenties are probably not going to be the best years of your life, at least not emotionally. These may or may not be the years when you look your best, but they're unlikely to be the years when you feel your best. In fact, statistically speaking, your twenties are likely to be the years when you will feel your worst.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:16:06):
That's right. It's funny, I've been working with 20 somethings for 25 years and again and again when people say, what do you specialize in? And I say 20 somethings, they say, why would you do that? Just sort of imagining they couldn't possibly have any problems, but it's actually they are, I'm sorry to say, the mental health low point of life, which is why I've been working with this age group for two decades because it is the most challenging time from a mental health perspective for all the reasons we just talked about. It's also a time which we'll get to where you can feel better pretty quickly, and a little bit of advice goes a long way. So it's up from here.
Mel Robbins (00:16:48):
Well, I can't wait to get into how we move from panicking in your twenties to problem solving and how those of us that have 20 somethings in our life can be more of a support system in moving to problem solving. But I do want to read a little bit more from the 20 something treatment. This is page one 10, and the reason why I love this section of the book is because you helped me to really drop into sort of that quiet psychological state of worry that a 20 something has that you're aware of because you've been in clinical practice focused on this age group for decades, and you're a professor at UVA who is teaching students this age, but I found this really interesting. Young adults are the loneliest people in the United States. These are the sort of things that I hear every day from 20 somethings. I don't really feel like I have a group that I belong to. I'd like to delete the Snapchats from my old friends who haven't been great to me, but then there would be nothing on my phone. I don't know how to get close to people. There's not a handbook for that. One of my best friends ghosted me and the other one found a boyfriend. I don't know how to take friendships to the next level. I lost interest in my social life because I'm embarrassed. I'm not going anywhere at work. I just feel like I have no one to turn to when I need something or when I have a hard day. I don't know a single person in my life. Life in my twenties is hard in all sorts of ways. I feel like what I really need is a friend that's really sad.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:18:29):
Many people are surprised because when we think about the twenties, we think about people at music festivals and they're partying and they're at raves and they're going on trips to Ibiza, and that may be what it looks like on social media. But yes, empirically your twenties tend to be the loneliest years of life because you left. You grew up in a home with some family of some form, and you may be statistically speaking or headed toward your own family that you're going to create in the future, but you're between families, you're often between friends, you're often between relationships as people move around. So it really is the loneliest time of life.
Mel Robbins (00:19:09):
One of the other problems I wanted to just touch on before we jump into what we can do, and the good news here is that I hear from the 20 somethings in my life, particularly two of our kids, that they feel a little, whether the word is deceived or disappointed or confused by what they thought their twenties was going to be like and what it's actually like. That instead of having fun and traveling and figuring out their purpose and going to new cities that instead, the reality is they're at a job that they don't like. They're in the bathroom crying because they don't know how to deal with stress at work. They're getting ghosted nonstop by the dating apps. They never see their friends. They have no idea where their life is going. They're terrified about their money and the lack of money that they have and how expensive everything is. Where do you think this disconnect comes from and is this a very common thing that you're seeing with 20 somethings?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:20:11):
Oh, absolutely. I would say that's the main disconnect is that people think maybe because of social media also because culturally we idealize youth and say, oh, it's so fun and great and easy to be young when really we could talk about this later, but I think it's more fun and great to be older. But back to what you said, empirically speaking, your twenties are probably not going to be the best years of your life. When I have a client crying in my office saying, I thought the twenties were going to be the best years of my life, I said, if the twenties turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong. That what you want to do in your twenties is put the work in so that life keeps getting better across your thirties and your forties and your fifties.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:20:57):
And every study done shows that on average life gets better across every decade of adulthood, and I want that person that I'm working with to be one of those people where they feel more confident, more competent, their relationships are better, their career is better, their partnership is better. They have kids if they want them. They're experiencing the joys and the struggles of that. They're finding their purpose that there's really a lot to look forward to in your twenties, but even more so beyond, and that's just sort of the opposite of what people hear. Not only do they hear thirties, the new 20, they also kind of hear, Ugh, life is over when you're 30. There's nothing good after that when in fact, I have to tell you, Mel, I've been doing this for 25 years. I have never heard from an old student or client who said, gosh, I wish I was back in my twenties. They all reach out and say, life is so much better In my thirties or in my forties.
Mel Robbins (00:21:56):
Twenties were the worst decade of my life. I will literally have talked about it a lot. I do not like the person that I was going through a lot of what you're talking about and never would've been normal. Right. That's totally normal. That's a sign that you're doing your twenties correctly.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:22:11):
You're on track. Yes.
Mel Robbins (00:22:13):
I would love to kind of break down each area of life and career and love that you see 20 somethings struggling with in your practice and that you've seen in the research. And I want to read to you from your bestselling book, defining Decade, the world of work has officially been disrupted, which means there are more choices, but more confusion to because short-term work has replaced long-term careers. The average 20 something will have about a handful of jobs in their twenties alone. Young adults are more educated and engaged than ever before, but dishearteningly, their first jobs out of school may not even require a college degree. Other entry-level jobs have gone overseas making it difficult for some young adults to gain a foothold at home for those who can swing it. An unpaid internship is the new starter job, and at any given time, about half of 20 somethings are unemployed or underemployed. Wow. And we didn't even talk about student debt and we didn't even talk about the fact that we are now in a hybrid work and a remote work environment. The reality is brutal. How are you supposed to build a successful career coming out of school and having no work experience in your twenties?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:23:38):
You build it one good piece of identity capital at a time. So identity capital, it's actually a really fabulous and flexible concept. It's not mine. I'm the middleman teaching people about it, but it's really about doing things that add value to who you are. So maybe it's you get the best job that you can, even if it's not a great job, you go for the advanced degree. You get the certifications or the skills that you can build on that. On average, actually young adults will have nine different jobs by the age of 35, and most will ultimately wind up in careers and often be successful in careers that they had never heard of when they were in college, and that didn't even exist when they were in college. So gone are the days when you need to be thinking at 24, who am I going to be forever?
(00:24:27):
You can't predict it, you don't know it, but if you're just going one good job at a time, one good piece of identity capital at a time, then that builds over time and you continue to build on it. I mean, you and I are really probably both great examples of how we had lots of different pieces of identity capital in our twenties and our thirties, and now we're doing things with it that we could have never foreseen. But it's just getting out there and doing things that add value, that are investments in yourself, skills that you can take into the workplace, that lead to other skills, that lead to other skills that lead to other opportunities.
Mel Robbins (00:25:04):
Can you give the person listening a few examples of what identity capital might be? Because I think when you're in it and you've got that job and you're working at a coffee shop or you're a hostess, even though an economics major or you're facing a brutal kind of environment in terms of hiring and you're just sending resumes and sending resumes and nothing is clicking and you're not quite sure what to do, what does and what can identity capital opportunities look like as a 20-year-old?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:25:36):
I mean, the great thing about identity capital is it can be a lot of things depending on who you're trying to be or who you think you might be trying to be. So obviously college degree, that's a piece of identity capital. Any internship or job you have, even if it's not a great job, you have to be learning something. It has to be adding value to you somehow. If you're a barista or a bartender and you don't want to keep doing that, if you want to keep doing that, awesome. If you don't want to keep doing that, you can still be earning pieces of identity capital on the side of maybe your getting a certification and X, Y, or Z to signal that you're trying to pivot into this industry. Maybe you're leading a community group on A, B, or C that shows your engagement with philanthropy or community. So it's really anything that shows how you've invested in yourself and what you have to offer the workplace. So identity capital is very flexible and one piece leads to another, leads to another.
Mel Robbins (00:26:40):
Is there anything that you say Dr. Jay is somebody who is currently a job, they don't like it, they know it's not the end game might not even be in the industry they want to be in. They have no idea what to do next. How do they begin to start to solve this problem of figuring out who they want to be or what they're interested in?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:27:00):
Right, okay. So to the person who has no idea, they do have some idea. They're just not aware that they have some idea because they've been on the planet for 20 or 25 years. They have thoughts and experiences, but they just often young adults haven't articulated that to themselves. So that's part of what we do together. So four questions to ask yourself when you're feeling like I have no idea. One is what are you good at? Two is what do you enjoy? Three is what might pay my bills and maybe not immediately, but one day, what's going to give me the lifestyle that I think I want or need? And four is what does the world need? And I'm going to come back to these for a minute. The reason these four are important is I, for example, I'm good at a lot of things I don't enjoy. So part of my young adult trajectory was figuring out just because I was good at something didn't mean that I had to go do it, and it actually maybe wasn't the best part of myself to be focusing on that. I'm also good at I mean I also enjoy a lot of things that I'm not that good at. So those are hobbies, those are probably not, careers are probably not going to pay my bills. And then thinking about what the world needs is often where purpose comes from also helps to pay your bills if the world needs what you have to offer. So really thinking about those four questions, and of course you may not know the answer to all of them yet, but you start with what you know head in that direction. I mean, again, to the non jobs by the age of 35, I tell people when you're going for a job, think of it as a one or two year commitment. Go one year at a time and if you like what you see, you're learning a lot, you're adding value, earning identity capital, sign up for another year. But if you're not, then it's time to pivot to something else.
Mel Robbins (00:28:57):
One of the things that you write about in the defining decade is that your lifetime earnings are determined in your twenties. What do you mean by that?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:29:05):
That's the data talking. I'm a very data-driven person. Data-driven help and hope is what I'm trying to help people have. So that's from the World Economic Forum, and what they found basically is that your learning curve in your twenties predicts your earning curve in your thirties and your forties and your fifties. So the skills that you're learning, the experiences that you're having at work, the degrees that you're getting, the jobs that you're having, that this is what sets the foundation that you have to build on in your thirties and beyond. And so what I tell 20 somethings is put yourself on the steepest learning curve. You can in your twenties, think of it as school, but get paid to learn. You may not get paid the most you'll ever be paid in your life, but get paid to learn. Put yourself on that steep learning curve because the learning curve slows down after the twenties and you kind of have less to take to the marketplace to get those learning opportunities.
Mel Robbins (00:30:04):
I'd love to read a question. This one comes from a listener named Mark, Dr. Jay. I'm 25 and I've been working as a barista since I graduated. At first it was just supposed to be a temporary thing, but now it's been three years. There are things I actually want to try like architecture, graphic design or something creative, but honestly, it feels way scary to try and hate it than to not try it all. I know I don't want to be a barista forever, but somehow doing nothing feels safer than potentially ruining these possibilities for myself. What would you say to Mark, because I'm sure you've heard that kind of thing before.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:30:40):
I've heard that many times. I would say doing nothing isn't safer. It's actually pretty dangerous that we know that 75% of 20 somethings who are underemployed are still underemployed a decade later. So underemployment is sticky. It's easy to get into, harder to get out of. So the nice thing about Mark is that it sounds like there's a couple of things he knows he wants to try. So it would be pretty easy to move him into the 25% who go from underemployment to employment, but he's got a couple things he wants to check out, so he needs to get going on that. Maybe it's graphic design, maybe it's architecture. Those are different. So he needs to take a step toward either one of those, find something out, maybe he finds out he doesn't like one. That's not a failure, that's information that means, okay, well it's now it's time to try the other one.
Mel Robbins (00:31:30):
This may sound like a dumb question, but how do you know if you're underemployed?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:31:35):
That's not a dumb question, and believe me, I was definitely underemployed at times in my twenties. Technically speaking, underemployment is a job that doesn't make use of the education that you have. So when I went to University of Virginia as an undergrad, great school and graduated, and my first job out of college was as an Outward Bound instructor, which I did for five years, no apartment, lived out of a car, took people around in the wilderness for five years, technically speaking, that was underemployment. You do not need a degree from UVA to be an Outward bound instructor. However, it was amazing prep for graduate school. I knew I wanted to go to graduate school in psychology, so I was working with special populations, Vietnam vets, survivors of violence, corporate CEOs. So I learned a ton about leadership and group work and helping people get from A to B in the worst conditions. So technically that was underemployment, but it had a ton of identity capital, so I was able to take that identity capital. When I went to go pivot to graduate school and I went around to do interviews, people said, oh, you're the Outward Bound girl. Tell me about Outward Bound. And so I think not to have a two black and white view on does this or does this immediately use my degree as much as what capital is in this for me. Can I turn this into the next thing?
Mel Robbins (00:33:04):
I would like to ask you for some advice. Let's say that I'm Mark's mother, and I know that Mark is working at a coffee shop or working as a host at a restaurant, and as the parent, my opinion is that by now, this was fine for the first year, but where's the get up and go, where's my high school athlete? Where's my person that I know you are? What happened? It seems kind of obvious that you should be either learning Canva or taking AI certifications or going to orientation for an architecture school. And so I feel like it's a common experience to, as the parent or the loved one or the friend to be like, what the hell is wrong with you? Take a class. This is not rocket science. What do you want us to know about what it's actually like to be in that state where kind of what you need to do, but you have so much of that fear that is a normal part of being a 20 something uncertain about everything, that it paralyzes you. How do we approach these moments? I think that is a very relatable and extremely common dynamic right now.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:34:30):
Well, there's a joke, for lack of a better word in the therapy community, which is how many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? And the answer is just one, but the light bulb has to want to change. But I actually would answer it even differently. The light bulb has to need to change. And so I think sometimes 20 somethings change when they need to, that it can get painful before they change of, wow, this really isn't going to work forever. I really can't pay my bills. I really hate this a lot. That that's okay to have that experience for Mark, to have that reality of
Dr. Meg Jay (00:35:10):
You know I really need to change. This isn't going to work for me. I think as parents, there's a lot of research around how people change, and one of the biggest pivots there is taking people from the pre-contemplation to contemplation of I'm not even thinking about changing to, I'm thinking about changing. And so people ask me, how do I get my kid to think about changing? And I say, give them something to contemplate. Give them a book to read, send them a podcast to listen to. Send them something you saw on Instagram and just to start to put it in their minds that maybe there's something I need to start thinking about here.
Mel Robbins (00:35:51):
Well, Dr. Jay, I feel like I can hear, share, send text right now because while the data and the research around the factors that create a lot of uncertainty in this decade can be very overwhelming, you say there's a lot of good news and you say that it is possible to cut right through the noise and to move from that paralysis that we keep hearing to, well, let's just solve the problem.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:36:23):
Right. Well, actually that's one gripe I have with the media right now is I feel like every story is about how bad it is for 20 somethings of what's happened to them, the pandemic or recessions or unemployment that we're always talking about what has happened to them rather than what can they do about it, that in life things are going to happen and we always have to say, okay, well what am I going to do about what's happened? We're kind of leaving it at what's happened and why it's so hard instead of saying, but you can do something.
Mel Robbins (00:36:54):
We've talked about career and work, but I would love to now shift to something every 20 something seems to be struggling with, which is dating and love. You've said that the person that you choose to be with might be the most important decision of your life. Let's talk about that.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:37:11):
Yeah, glad to. So we were talking about work and one reason I talk so much about work, it's the biggest source of growth and change across adulthood relationships, however, especially romantic relationships are the biggest source of happiness and unhappiness. So if you're listening and you have a partner, you know that if you're partnered with someone, you are now in a three legged race in life, that everything you do from where do I live? What's my job? What color are we going to paint the living room, where are we going to go on vacation that you're now joined with another person on that? And if your relationship is going well, you're doing well, you're feeling well. If your relationship isn't going well, you're not doing well, you're not feeling well, it's a lot easier to change your job than it is to change your spouse. There's a lot of different ways to create a family, but most 20 somethings I know would eventually like to find their person, and they generally want to try to find that person one time and stick with it, and I hope they do.
Mel Robbins (00:38:14):
You've also said Dr. Jay, that dating apps are not the problem. So what do you think is wrong about the way the average person, particularly in their twenties, thinks about dating?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:38:24):
I think a lot of people are using dating apps similarly to how they're using job boards and that people will say, I'm looking so hard for a job. I am on job boards or 30 hours a week. And so I would like that person to maybe take a more targeted intentional approach to looking for a job by reaching out to weak ties, or we could talk about that in a minute. But similarly to dating, I'll say, are you doing anything about your love life? You said you were lonely. You said you wanted someone. I am I on the apps 5, 10, 15 hours a week, I'm on. I'm having conversations, I'm sending messages, and I feel like people are using apps to say, look, I'm doing something. I would rather see that person spend three to five hours a week going out doing something. They enjoy hanging out with people that they like getting involved in a cause that they believe in and be a little bit more targeted and intentional rather than, oh, I'm scrolling, I'm surfing, I'm swiping, I'm on it. But because it's often not that productive.
Mel Robbins (00:39:29):
Well, it's true. It's a way to say, I'm doing it,
Dr. Meg Jay (00:39:31):
I'm doing it.
Mel Robbins (00:39:32):
It's sort of like in college where you could go to a particular place in the library to be social, but say you're studying
Dr. Meg Jay (00:39:41):
Or not,
Mel Robbins (00:39:42):
Versus you go to a different spot when you actually need to get the studying done.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:39:48):
Right, exactly. And I definitely have had many clients, many 20 somethings who have found their person on dating apps, but they tend to be approaching it in an intentional way. Not I'm surfing, I'm scrolling, I'm swiping, and messaging. They tend to sort of know what they want and they're not afraid to go out there and look for it or ask for it, whether that's in person or on an app.
Mel Robbins (00:40:11):
I want to read from page 207 in your bestselling book, the Defining Decade being single while you're young may be glorified in the press, but staying single across the twenties does not typically feel good. A study that tracked men and women from their early twenties to their later twenties found that of those who remained single, who dated or hooked up, but avoided commitment, 80% were dissatisfied with their dating lives and only 10% didn't wish they had a partner. So 90% of people wish they had a partner. Being chronically uncoupled may be especially detrimental to men as those who remain single throughout their twenties experienced a significant dip in their self-esteem near 30. Why? What does this passage tell you, Dr. J?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:41:07):
Dating is important and scary. So I think a lot of people postpone dating because going back to that uncertainty, it's scary, it's anxiety provoking, it's very uncertain, and it's not mandatory. So most 20 somethings have got to get a job. They have got to get a roof over their heads, they've got to buy groceries, but dating, they can sort of keep kicking the can down the road. And so a lot of people, young men especially, will say, well, I'm going to get work totally figured out and then I'm going to start thinking about dating. Life is really rarely that linear and work doesn't get totally figured out until easily thirties. And if I think if you start looking for a partner and haven't had any experience in that in your twenties, you've really lost opportunities to learn something about what kind of relationships work for me? What kind of relationships? We talked about nine jobs by the age of 35. I don't know if you'll have nine different relationships, but you'll probably have more than one or likely have more than one. And so really to use them in the same way of what works, what am I learning? And when you see something isn't working, it's time to move on.
Mel Robbins (00:42:18):
Dr. Jay, you've also said that when you pick your partner, you're picking your new family. Why is that mindset so important?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:42:25):
This is such an important reframe. So we grow up hearing the saying, you can't pick your family, but you can pick your friends. You've heard that, of course, everybody grows up.
Mel Robbins (00:42:33):
Well, friends are the family you choose.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:42:36):
So everybody sort of grows up hearing that. But then when you're in your twenties and beyond, suddenly you do pick your family when you partner with someone and create a family of your own. So to realize you're not the recipient of a family anymore, you're the agent you're choosing. And this is particular, I mean, this is important for every 20 something from my heart. It's especially important for those 20 somethings who grew up without unhappy families. A lot of young adults say Happy families are for other people, other people had happy families. I don't get to have that. And the great thing about working with 20 somethings like this is you do get to have that. We get to reboot this. You can go pick that, create that for yourself.
Mel Robbins (00:43:20):
How do you create a happy family if you grew up in a family that wasn't happy?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:43:25):
Oftentimes, people who grew up with adversity are the most motivated to have happy families, the most clear on how important this is and what they want and what they don't want. And oftentimes a really powerful piece of work with a 20 something is to get shift to them from you get to do it differently. You actually know what's really important, what to be careful about. Some of the best parents and partners that I have worked with or have seen came from unhappy families because they're so motivated to do this right and to do it right for their kids, which is amazing.
Mel Robbins (00:44:00):
So you also talk about how something called perceived desirability affects how successful you are romantically. What exactly is perceived desirability and how does it impact dating and your love life?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:44:12):
Yeah, yeah. So perceived desirability, that's a mouthful, but it is really how much you think people want you, how wanted you feel like you are. This is actually a bigger predictor of self-esteem in relationships than career success or popularity or attractiveness. It's how much you think people want you. The tough part is a 20 something or 20-year-old will come in my office and they'll say, nobody's ever wanted me before. No one ever will want me. So their perceived desirability is based on what happened with the knuckleheads in high school. So they're going off some scant and bad data, and then they take that data into college or into their twenties and they spend 10 years making dating and mating decisions based on whether the boys in high school or the people in college wanted to be with them or not. So a big part of my work with young adults or if you're listening in your twenties, a big course correct for you can be shifting those conversations that you're having in your head about that data, about your perceived desirability.
Mel Robbins (00:45:20):
How do you do that? I'm going to give you some of the things that I've heard. 20 something say. People don't find me attractive when I go out to the bar. Everybody's interested in my friends. Nobody comes up to me, nobody wants to date me. People will hook up with me, but nobody ever wants a relationship. Everybody else has a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Why can't I find somebody? How do you change that story that you tell yourself?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:45:48):
Yeah, so most of those comments, what you just described, it's kind of black and white thinking or what we call catastrophic thinking. So when people are uncertain, they tend to catastrophize. They have worst case scenario. A lot of what if no one ever wants me? What if no one ever chooses me? What if no one thinks I'm attractive? So I try to shift people from what if to what else? What else could you be saying about the situation or what else could you be saying about yourself? So you haven't met anyone that's right for you yet, or, okay, the people at this bar preferred your friend, but maybe in a different setting they might be more interested in you. What else can you be telling yourself besides it's hopeless, you're powerless. There's nothing that you can do because the really wonderful thing about finding a partner, you just need one good one.
(00:46:44):
You just need one match. It's not like college where you need to get an A or a B in the majority of your classes in order to get a degree. I mean, imagine if you went to college and every class you took, you could fail or get a D, and you just had to get an A or a B in one and you'd be good. And actually, that's kind of what dating is like, that you can have a lot of relationships that don't work out. A lot of people who don't want to be with you. You just need one person, one right person for you to want to be with you. So you can't really take all those data points and apply them to yourself.
Mel Robbins (00:47:19):
I love the strategy of going from what if to what else. I have another question from somebody. This one's from Hannah, Dr. Jay, I'm 27 and single. And honestly, I'm starting to get scared. It feels like everyone I'm into doesn't want to settle down and the ones who do, I'm just not into. I've spent years trying to be the cool girl, not pushing for commitment, not asking for too much, but now I'm here still alone, and it feels like I have zero prospects. I just keep thinking, what if no one I want ever wants the same things as me? And what if by the time they do, it's too late for the life I've always pictured for myself? Is this a common experience?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:48:02):
Very so common that in the updated version of the defining decade, I added a chapter called 29 conversations. And the 29 conversations are presumably 29 conversations you would have with a potential partner of, Hey, as a concept, do you want to get married? What about religion in your life? What about money? What about kids? What about work? While with kids, all that. But really the most important person to have those 29 conversations with is yourself before you start dating or as you're dating so that you're clear on what you're looking for as you're looking that a lot of young adults go into relationships saying, who wants me, wants me? Rather than,
Dr. Meg Jay (00:48:46):
Well, what is it that I want? And if you go in without thinking, it's like going into a grocery store hungry that you're hungry, but you don't know what you're looking for, and suddenly you're grabbing this and you're grabbing that without really thinking about, what did I come in here for? So I would tell Hannah that we need to slow down for a minute and do the 29 conversations and figure out what is it she's even looking for.
Mel Robbins (00:49:12):
I love that. And the questions, and this is why I love this book so much, are so helpful. They're on page 1 49 of the defining decade, and here's some of the ones just so that you can hear 'em, because I think it is a cool exercise to do this with someone else, but actually getting your own answers straight
Dr. Meg Jay (00:49:31):
First. Absolutely,
Mel Robbins (00:49:32):
Yes. Do I make you a better person? Are you religious? How are we going to manage our money? Do you want to have kids? What do you think of our sex life? What are my political beliefs? What kind of parent do I want to be? How traditional are you when it comes to gender roles? How do you like to keep a house? How will we keep our relationship alive over the long run? What does your future look like? Why do you like me? I mean, even asking that of yourself. Why do I like myself? And if you answers, I really don't. Then start there. How important is travel to you? How do you spend your free time? Have you ever cheated on a partner? If so, when and why do you think it's possible you would cheat on me? I think these questions are really important. What makes you feel loved? What do you need after a tough day? Wow, this is so cool. One of the things that you talk about that is very dangerous when it comes to relationships in your twenties is sliding into a relationship. Can you describe what that means when you are sliding into a relationship?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:50:43):
Yeah. This is a concept, Scott Stanley, university of Denver. It's called sliding, not Deciding. And it's when we sort of slide into a situation without being intentional, without really actively deciding to move from A to B or from B2C. And so it's very similar to underemployment, which we were talking about, which can be sticky. You can slide into underemployment and then get stuck there. The same thing with romantic relationships. You can sort of slide into dating down. So it's like, well, we were going out a lot, spending all our time together, sleeping over at each other's places. So we just decided to move into and well, we were living together and everybody started getting married, and so I guess we're probably going to have to do that next. That's what sliding sounds like. Deciding sounds really differently, which is, Hey, I've been going out with this person for a while, we, or don't we want to take it to the next level and move in together?
(00:51:42):
And should we talk about that and what that means to two different people? And what are our intentions there? Hey, we've been living together. How's this going or not going? And do we want to take it to the next level again or do we want to say what you see is what you get and this isn't working? So it's very similar to sort of sliding into bad jobs. We can slide into bad relationships and it's easier to slide in than it is to slide out that you can slide into a bad relationship. You're living together three years go by, you've got a lease, you've got a couch, you've got a dog. Everybody seems to have a partner, and it can be hard to say, okay, I'm going to have to get out of this.
Mel Robbins (00:52:25):
I read in your book that this sliding into a relationship where you kind of spend time together. So you slide into moving together, then you're living together, and then you slide into getting engaged, and then you get engaged and you slide into getting married that that represents a large number of couples that you see in their thirties and forties who get divorced.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:52:48):
Yes, that people often say, I wasn't thoughtful. I didn't listen to myself. So the person out there who's listening, what I have to say to you, which is do the gut check. Ask yourself, what if I'm still in this situation five years from now, what if I'm still in this relationship five years from now? As I ask that question, what are the feelings that you're having? And if that feeling is, oh my gosh, no, then I really have to ask why you're still doing it now and how much longer you're going to spend on this. People know when they're not happy in a relationship. I don't have a magical to see that when they don't. The person I'm sitting across the room from you who's listening, if the gut check feels bad and only you can act on it,
Mel Robbins (00:53:35):
How do you know though if you're settling? Because if your twenties are a defining decade with a steep learning curve, it's also going to be full of starts and firsts and worsts and growth. And there's a big difference between you being compatible with somebody versus somebody just needing to learn some life skills.
(00:53:56):
I often say to my daughters in particular, look, you can look at your father right now and idolize him. That is not the person I married or I met when he was 26 years old. He was not a good cook.
(00:54:09):
He was not particularly clean. He would've rather lived in a tent than in a house. And so you're looking at the accumulation of 30 years of skill building and of partnership, and I'm not the same person. And so if you're in that zone, because I do feel that this is one of those areas where either you 20 somethings over, kind of
Dr. Meg Jay (00:54:36):
Under or over,
Mel Robbins (00:54:38):
Are they under? But there's so much questioning and are you questioning the right things? Are you being realistic? So how do you know if you are being too picky or if you're actually dating down and sliding into something you're going to regret,
Dr. Meg Jay (00:55:00):
Right, I mean, that is the $64,000 question, which a lot of people come to me with and they want me to answer it of, oh, the algorithm says that this is sliding, or This is fine. I think one thing to understand about the twenties, and I saw this on your previous podcast about the twenties as well, and it's in the 20 something treatment, is questions, who should I partner with? What kind of family should I have? There aren't right answers. There are only your answers. So a lot of people in their twenties are looking for the answer of, is this person right for me? Is this person the one? There isn't an answer. There's just a choice. And so I think just seeing what am I signing up for? How am I compatible with this person? How am I maybe not compatible with this person? Are there things we want to change related to that? How am I going to deal with those incompatibilities. But yes, that perfect partner, that obvious answer is probably not out there.
Mel Robbins (00:56:03):
I would love to have you speak to somebody who right now is sliding because I know that this is going to be friends sending it to other friends. They can't tell them you're sliding, but Dr. Jay can.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:56:19):
That tends to be my job.
Mel Robbins (00:56:21):
I'm sure. You know deep down this isn't right, but maybe you've been with this person for four years, they're a good person. You're just realizing they're not your person. But that sense of, oh my God, am I really going to go back to the drawing board? Am I sure there's something better out there? Like that agony that you feel particularly, it's one thing if the person's a jerk, that's an easier breakup. But when it's a good person and you're scared that you're never going to find anybody that you're more compatible with, what would you say to that person who deep down does know they're sliding into something that just isn't quite right?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:57:06):
I'm thinking of a client I worked with a couple of years ago who was in a relationship. It was okay, but it just, all the gut checks were saying this wasn't what she should spend her lifetime on. And she literally one day said, okay, we're obviously going to get married. They were living together, but they weren't even engaged. She said, we're obviously going to get married, but I really think my second marriage could be a lot better. And so I said, hold on. If you're already planning or already looking forward to already anticipating needing a different partner later, we just need to do that now. And so what I would tell the listener is what my supervisor told me 30 years ago when I was learning to work with young adults is the best time to work on your marriage is before you have one. And so that is to take it very seriously around this big decision that will probably have more to do with your happiness than anything else of, and be really honest with yourself about how does this relationship feel to me? How does it feel across the long haul? I mean, usually people are asking everyone else for the answer, but usually you have a sense of is this,
Mel Robbins (00:58:23):
Well, what's interesting is if you're asking other people for the answer, then you already know.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:58:26):
You might have questions, right?
Mel Robbins (00:58:28):
Yes. What does the research say about compatibility? I mean, is there something that you wish every 20 something new about what makes people compatible?
Dr. Meg Jay (00:58:37):
At the end of the day, it's really not whether you have differences from your partner because you will. It's more of how you deal with those differences. So if you're doing the thing that therapists call treating differences as deficiencies, that's going to be toxic for your relationship. Oh, you like this. What is wrong with you? Or, oh, you do that, that's not so great. Just because it's different from you. So this is where your let them theory is amazing because you just let people be different from you. So I have a client whose husband now was a boyfriend, then fiance, now husband, really likes to go to music festivals. She's over it. She doesn't be doing it anymore. He's not. He likes it and nothing terrible happens. He comes home, life goes on. And I've really had to with her say, this is just a difference. You've got to just let him do this and maybe he'll stop in five years. Maybe he won't, but this is not a deficiency that this is something he still enjoys and you don't.
Mel Robbins (00:59:41):
I want to shift to something that a lot of people are afraid to talk about in their twenties in particular, reproduction and family planning, but I love that you go there.
Dr. Meg Jay (00:59:51):
I'd love to go there.
Mel Robbins (00:59:52):
Well, can you share the story of walking into your advisor's office at the age of 34? What happened in that moment and what did it teach you?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:00:00):
Yeah, so when I was in my early thirties, I was a grad student, uc, Berkeley. My dissertation advisor was a famous psychoanalyst who literally wrote the book on feminism and motherhood and how they can go together. So we're sitting in her office one day talking about probably my dissertation, and she's asked, I don't know why, but she said, do you want kids? And I kind of dismissively said, oh, yeah, yeah, I think so. And then she said, well, how old are you? And I said, 34. And she looked at me over her reading glasses, and I remember she kind of slapped the papers on her lap and she said, well, you better get on it. And I was so shocked that seemed so politically incorrect for her to sort of come at me like that about having kids, which was so ironic because she'd written the book about feminism and motherhood and what she was really doing in that moment was role modeling for me. Smart and ambitious women can be smart and ambitious, not just about work, but also about love and about family. And that was when I really, it clicked for me that feminists want families too, that having families is how you create more feminists. So I think a year and change later I had a baby, and then not long after that I had another one. And so I gave a talk at her retirement party probably a year or so after that. And I remember saying I really had her to credit not just for my career, but also for my family because she was willing to say, wait, what are you doing? You don't have all the time in the world. You're going to need to get on this. And I appreciate that.
Mel Robbins (01:01:43):
Well, I'm glad you're saying that because there is a big kind of broad brush stroke about people are having families later. And while that may be true, there is a biological reality for women, and a lot of what you write about is yes, the decade of your twenties is the defining decade. Yes, you're going to feel the worst. You're going to be the most uncertain. You're going to have the most first experiences and worst experiences. You're doing it in a great way and it's normal. If you feel stuck and overwhelmed and paralyzed at times, that means you're doing it correctly. And for women in particular, it is also very important to understand the realities of your biology and to get very clear with yourself about what you actually want.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:02:36):
Absolutely. It's real. I don't have a horse in the race on whether people have, kids don't have kids. It's really about educating yourself about your body and thinking about what do I think I want? What might I want? Another thing she asked that we were having that conversation, I kind of pushed back. I said, oh, I think I only want to have one child. I was trying to end the conversation as quickly as I could and she wouldn't let up. She said, you don't know that. And then of course, I had two children within three years. So it really is just about educating yourself, doing the gut check with yourself so that you can get what you want, not so that you need to do something that you think I think is important.
Mel Robbins (01:03:16):
What do you want the person listening to know about their reproductive future, especially if they're in their twenties, that nobody's just telling them?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:03:25):
Well, everything we just said. And I would say the other piece, and this doesn't get talked about enough, is that
Dr. Meg Jay (01:03:31):
I think because people are having kids later, and I also, I had my kids in my thirties, so been there, done that, but as we think about how far out can I push this, maybe it could be 40, maybe it could be 42. I think the thing to understand is that having a baby is not the end. It's the beginning. And I think what you maybe don't understand until you have kids is, Hey, now that I have kids, I actually want to be around for them as long as possible. And so waiting to have kids until the last possible minute is not necessarily the win-win that we make it out to be.
Mel Robbins (01:04:09):
I love that, that having kids is a beginning. It's not the end of something. It's the beginning of something. That's really empowering.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:04:18):
And for many people, it's the beginning of one of the most meaningful, most powerful, most important parts of life, and we want it to go on as long as possible.
Mel Robbins (01:04:27):
But for a lot of women in particular, you think, well, this is the ending of my career ascension. This is the end of ambition. This is the end of a lot of it.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:04:36):
I will tell you, Mel, I'd be interested in your perspective. I was more productive, more ambitious, and more successful after I had kids because I was more pressed for time and because it was more important to me to succeed than when I was a single person. I was fine with my mac and cheese and my ramen noodles and whatever, but once I had kids, I was pressed for time. I was ambitious. I had purpose. I had meaning my career exploded after I had kids.
Mel Robbins (01:05:03):
That was my experience too. Didn't make it easy.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:05:05):
No, no,
Mel Robbins (01:05:06):
But 100% made me more ambitious, gave me a sense of purpose. And the time crunch thing also does make you more productive. Yeah. Let's talk about social anxiety. Okay, because you write a lot about it, and I see a lot of kids, kids, I see a lot of people in their twenties talking about how they have social anxiety. What is social anxiety? What is a normal amount of angst? When do you know it's a problem? I'd love to just hear you talk about what that concept is and if you see it as a big issue for people in their twenties.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:05:46):
Yes and no. So social anxiety is the most commonly endorsed or most common mental health complaint. There was actually a questionnaire that's given to students in student health centers all over the country and has a bunch of questions on it, obviously. And the most endorsed question is, I'm worried other people don't like me.
(01:06:08):
So this is a normal primary concern amongst college students. Young adults, I'm worried other people don't like me, but there's a difference between being worried and being clinically anxious. And so the way I talk about it with 20 somethings, or if you're listening, my question to you would be, is your social anxiety, are we talking about clinical anxiety or are we talking about uncertainty? Are you feeling socially uncertain of I don't know if people like me, I don't know if what I said was stupid. I don't know if I'm going to be in the club. I don't know if I'll have anyone to go out with on a Saturday night. That's social uncertainty.
(01:06:47):
And I think that is more commonly than not what 20 somethings are dealing with because remember we said their friendships are unstable, their romantic relationships are unstable. So there's a lot of social uncertainty there. I am cautious about people jumping to diagnostic labels. There's something called the NA SIBO effect, which is kind of the power of negative expectations where you hear, oh, no, I have a disorder. I'm going to have this forever. And now people really won't like me because on top of them already not liking me, I'm deficient and disordered and messed up. And so I try not to label people with clinical problems when maybe what we're dealing with is a developmental problem.
Mel Robbins (01:07:30):
So if you're listening and you are able to be honest with yourself and say, that's me. I do have social uncertainty, how do we move from the paralysis of that into problem solving? So you're not plagued with that uncertainty,
Dr. Meg Jay (01:07:46):
Right. Well, fortunately, it doesn't really matter whether you want to call it uncertainty or anxiety because the treatment is the same. So experience is the treatment. Life is the best therapist. So for the person who is feeling socially uncertain or socially anxious, the worst thing you can do is avoid and just stay in your head about that. The best thing you can do is put yourself in social situations that go well or start with people you trust. Make sure you're showing up for your job, make sure you're having those difficult conversations, and then you start to have a little bit more social certainty or more social confidence, and to remember that most people are not socially confident until the end of their twenties or beyond. So I'm not talking about do this for a couple of months and then, oh, you're going to be socially confident.
(01:08:39):
We become socially confident when our relationships come together. We have our group, we have people we know we can rely on. Maybe we have a partner who loves us. We start to deliver at work to have those experiences. I talk a lot in the 20 something treatment about skills over pills, and that's whether you're on medication or not or need medication or not. Everybody needs skills.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:08:59):
And so in your twenties, I mean there's just such an explosion in terms of the social skills that you need to function at work to make new friends in a big city. You're not all sitting in a classroom together anymore. You're really going to develop a lot of new skills. That's where the social confidence is going to come from. It's going to take a minute.
Mel Robbins (01:09:18):
You actually write about that. It's on page 46 in your bestselling book, the 20 something Treatment, and you're talking about medication, and you're talking about the fact that a lot of the psychoactive drugs, which many people do have a clinical need to be on, you're not saying that's not important. If you're working with a licensed medical expert, provider provider, and sometimes those prescriptions help you access the therapy. So you're saying they may provide relief in the short run, and while some patients may farewell on them in the long run, research suggests they may worsen long run outcomes for most others. One reason for this is that medications alone don't teach us anything. Maybe they take the edge off or turn the volume down on unwanted thoughts or feelings, but they don't help us learn how to handle unwanted thoughts or feelings or prevent them in the first place. Then once the medication is removed, our ability to cope or to manage our lives may be no better than it was before. And what I've seen over and over again, it actually becomes worse because they weren't building the skills. And so what are some of the skills that 20 somethings need to focus on building to be a functioning adult that grows throughout your lifetime and lives a good life? What are those important skills that you can't learn by reading a book in college?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:10:47):
Right? I would say one that cuts across work, love, friends life is having difficult conversations, having conversations with new people, not the trusted few that you already know like you. So in terms of work, talking to weak ties, this is how we learn about new jobs, learn about new opportunities, talking to new people. When you've moved to a new town and you sign up for the walking club or the running club, this is how you make new friends. This is how you talk to someone you think you might like in a bar or at a conference, that being willing to talk to people that you don't already feel comfortable with, and maybe they're different or older or in positions of power or just new. That is the single most important skill because it branches out. It gets you out into all those areas.
Mel Robbins (01:11:41):
We've talked a lot about the reality of the defining decade in your twenties and the just number of reasons why it is a decade of a lot of uncertainty, a lot of change, a lot of opportunity. But one of the things that you wrote about that caught my attention in the 20 something treatment is hope and how hope is the biggest predictor of future happiness. But Dr. Jay, what gives you hope? I mean, what do you see in the 20 somethings that you work with, even the ones that are really, really struggling, that makes you firmly believe and know that everything is going to turn out even if they feel lost today?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:12:23):
This is what I love about working with 20 somethings, is that I really have development on my side. The data is on my side. So yes, I mentioned twenties or the low point of life, sorry, low mental health, low point and low points in lots of ways. But all the data show life gets better across the thirties, across the forties, across the 50. So I have that confidence and that belief and positive expectations actually go a long way in terms of giving people belief and hope. So whether it's a college student who comes into my office or a 25-year-old, or the people we've talked about or you who's listening, when people come into my office, I assume that they're going to grow and change in a positive direction, and I feel very confident that I can help them do that or they can do that. You can do that from listening to a podcast, reading a book. And one of the best parts of my job is that every day I hear from students, clients, readers who say, oh my gosh, it's been five years and this has happened. I get save the dates all the time and baby announcements and new job announcements. And so I have that belief that things are going to work out, can work out, and I think that helps people. I know that helps people. It's one of the best predictors of positive mental health.
Mel Robbins (01:13:46):
Well, what I've really learned from our conversation today is first of all, I have a much greater level of compassion and a much greater and deeper understanding of the drivers based on the data that you've shared of why exactly this decade can be so fraught with uncertainty and emotional roller coaster. And I also see the mistakes I've made of just assuming that they knew exactly what to do, assuming they knew what the problem was in the first place, assuming that the thing to do was obvious, and also offering reassurance because I thought, prop, oh, it's going to work out. You'll be fine. You got plenty of time. And it's done the opposite. And what I've learned now is that it's normal to feel all these things. There are very valid reasons to understand that this is exactly how you should feel. You're doing your twenties correctly if you have these moments. And that helping somebody move from feeling uncertain to solving the problems, whether the problems are in work or problems are in the right next step, or problems are in how can I earn money now or problems are, how can I build some skills or problems are how can I start to create some experiences for myself that help me figure out what direction to move in in my career that these are all things you can help somebody do.
(01:15:10):
And that's really, really encouraging. I'd love to have you speak to the person who's listening, who's thinking, oh my God, I am not my twenties. I blew it. I did not like, ah ha, Dr. Jay. Now I'm really screwed. I'm not in the career I want. I'm not where I want to be. I feel under everything that you talked about, I slid right into my fifties and don't even know how the hell I got here. What is your advice to the person who is feeling that regardless of the decade they're in?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:15:45):
Yeah, I would say you're not off the hook. Everything that I've said still applies to you. So the defining decade, here's the sneaky part about it. It's really about adult development. Everything that I'm telling 20 somethings is how adulthood works in every decade. I'm just trying to tell people as soon as possible, as early as possible in the process. And some of my favorite messages and conversations have been from 40 somethings or 50 somethings. Who said, I read your book for my kids and realized it was exactly the book that I needed as a 40 something. I had a 50 something woman say, you need to do a different edition of this and just change some of the words around and call it the redefining decade that it's really all the same, that, okay, you're further on your journey, but you're flying your plane. You can still course correct. I mean, we're all just starting from where we are every single day at every age, and all the same advice applies
Mel Robbins (01:16:40):
If the person listening takes just one action. Today from everything that you've shared, what do you think the most important thing to do is?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:16:50):
Have the courage to imagine your life going well, that I think 20 somethings and all of us at every age spend a lot of time with. What if it doesn't this? What if it doesn't that way? And we spend all our time doing that, which is kind of convenient because if you have the courage to imagine your life going well, you're going to see some things that mean something about what you need to be doing today to get there. And so that's what I often have people do is have the courage to imagine your life going, well, what does that mean you need to be doing today? I think all this, what if my life doesn't go well is in some ways avoidance and distraction over imagining what it is you actually, what your hopes and dreams really are.
Mel Robbins (01:17:37):
That is a fantastic, fantastic piece of advice. I think that might be one of my most favorite things anybody said on this podcast.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:17:47):
Thank you.
Mel Robbins (01:17:48):
Have the courage to imagine your life going well, Dr. Meg. Jay, what are your parting words?
Dr. Meg Jay (01:17:57):
My parting words similarly are take care of the minutes and the years will take care of themselves. That's just a very wise proverb, and it's really about when we're being intentional, we're being courageous today, our tomorrows are going to be just fine.
Mel Robbins (01:18:17):
Wow. Well, I have so thoroughly enjoyed the minutes where you took care of us today. Dr. Jay, thank you, thank you. Thank you for being here in our Boston Studios. Thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for sharing everything that you shared today. You certainly have made me a better parent and I feel better equipped to help my 20 somethings navigate this decade, and I also see how it all applies to redefining myself in all the decades to come. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:18:50):
Thank you. The pleasure was mine.
Mel Robbins (01:18:52):
And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that is going to help you and the people that you care about in their twenties to create a better life. I learned so much. I'm sure you did too. I cannot wait to hear how it helps you, how it helps the people that you care about. So thank you for being here. And one more thing, in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. No matter what decade you're in, I hope you take the steps to make it one of the best and most defining decades of your life. Alrighty, thank you for being here with me on YouTube. Thank you for watching all the way to the end, and thank you for sharing this with everybody in your life who's in their twenties. And thank you also for hitting subscribe. It's the way that you can support me and my team in bringing you world-class experts like Dr. Meg Jay for free. So thanks for doing that, and I know you're thinking. Alrighty, I'm excited, Mel, what should I watch next? You're going to love this video and I'm going to be there waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Meg Jay
Dr. Meg Jay is a developmental clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and leading expert on navigating your 20s.
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The Twentysomething Treatment: A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age
There is a young adult mental health crisis in America. So many twentysomethings are struggling—especially with anxiety, depression, and substance use—yet, as a culture, we are not sure what to think or do about it. Perhaps, it is said, young adults are snowflakes who melt when life turns up the heat. Or maybe, some argue, they’re triggered for no reason at all. Yet, even as we trivialize twentysomething struggles, we are quick to pathologize them and to hand out diagnoses and medications.
Medication is sometimes, but not always, the best medicine. For twenty-five years, Meg Jay has worked as a clinical psychologist who specializes in twentysomethings, and here she argues that most don’t have disorders that must be treated: they have problems that can be solved. In these pages, she offers a revolutionary remedy that upends the medicalization of twentysomething life and advocates instead for skills over pills.
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The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now
Our "thirty-is-the-new-twenty" culture tells us the twentysomething years don't matter. Some say they are an extended adolescence. Others call them an emerging adulthood. In The Defining Decade, Meg Jay argues that twentysomethings have been caught in a swirl of hype and misinformation, much of which has trivialized the most transformative time of our lives.
Drawing from more than two decades of work with thousands of clients and students, Jay weaves the latest science of the twentysomething years with behind-closed-doors stories from twentysomethings themselves. The result is a provocative read that provides the tools necessary to take the most of your twenties, and shows us how work, relationships, personality, identity and even the brain can change more during this decade than at any other time in adulthood—if we use the time well.
Resources
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- BrainFacts: When the Brain Starts Adulting
- Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment: Maturation of the adolescent brain
- USC Dornsife Magazine: Happiness Across the Life Span: Not a Slippery Slope after all
- Pew Research Center: Key takeaways on Americans’ views of and experiences with dating and relationships
- University of Florida: Identity Capital
- Evolutionary Psychology: Self-perceived attractiveness, romantic desirability and self-esteem: a mating sociometer perspective
- Personality and Individual Differences: Digging deeper into the relationship between self-esteem and mate value
- Forbes: Forbes Health Survey: 78% Of All Users Report Dating App Burnout
- University of Virginia: Why the 20s Are a Period of ‘Overwhelming Uncertainty,’ and How To Cope
- University of New Hampshire: What is Emerging Adulthood
- The Washington Post: Your Lifetime Earnings Are Probably Determined in Your Twenties
- Business Insider: Most US graduates who start their first job underemployed can't find college-level jobs 10 years later: report
- Institute of Family Studies: Premarital Cohabitation Is Still Associated With Greater Odds of Divorce
- NPR: Our Roaring 20s: 'The Defining Decade'
- National Alliance on Mental Illness: Youth and Young Adult Resources
- The British Psychological Society: Beating loneliness in your 20s
- The Atlantic: The One-Size-Fits-All Narrative of Your 20s Needs to Change
- The New York Times: What’s the Point of Your 20s? Ask the Patron Saint of Striving Youth.
- Vox: Post-graduation advice you’ll actually use
- Northwestern Medicine: Take Control of Your Health in Your 20s
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