This One Research Study Will Change How You Think About Your Entire Life

Mel Robbins (00:00:15):

Today's conversation about authenticity and the lies that you've been told is going to be life-changing. Dr. Todd Rose, expert researcher with a PhD from Harvard is here to teach you how to reconnect with your true self so you can live the life you deserve.

 

Todd Rose (00:00:30):

Here's the important part about authenticity.

Mel Robbins (00:01:12):

What is a collective illusion?

 

Todd Rose (00:01:14):

Collective illusion is groupthink, but you're wrong about the group. Almost two thirds of people are admitting that they are self silencing right now. You cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. It's about authenticity. Authenticity is the kryptonite of collective illusions. Probably the single most important study we've ever done that I think has the most implications for society and for individuals is,

 

Mel Robbins (00:01:42):

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Hey, it's Mel. Before we get into this incredible episode about living a more authentic life, my team was showing me 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Do me a quick favor, hit subscribe. That way you don't miss any of the episodes of the Mel Robbins podcast that we post here on YouTube. And it also lets me know that you enjoy the guests and the content that we're bringing to you for free because I want to make sure you don't miss a thing. And boy are you here for an incredible conversation today. So thanks for hitting subscribe. Alright, you ready? Good. Let's dive in. Please help me welcome Dr. Todd Rose to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

 

Todd Rose (00:02:29):

Thanks for having me.

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:30):

I am so excited to talk to you.

 

Todd Rose (00:02:32):

Me too.

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:33):

I'm really excited for so many reasons. And here's where I want to start. How is my life going to be different?

 

Todd Rose (00:02:39):

If you understand and internalize the ideas we're going to talk about today, you're going to be more confident. You're going to live more authentically, which is going to lead to greater life satisfaction, happiness, but more importantly, your relationships are going to be better and you're going to have a deeper sense of belonging to the groups that matter most to you.

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:58):

That's a big promise. I'm really excited for that. I actually believe you. That's good. No, I do believe you. I believe you. And what I'm excited about is I have this sense that we are living in a world where we all feel so divided from one another, and yet I hold firmly to this belief that the vast majority of us are way more similar and believe way more of the same things and want a lot of the same things than we actually are led to believe in the world right now.

 

Todd Rose (00:03:26):

And you're a hundred percent correct what we do at my think tank populace, we do what's called private opinion research.

 

Mel Robbins (00:03:33):

What is private opinion research?

 

Todd Rose (00:03:34):

So polling, it's all public and it has all the social pressure. There's a right answer. And so it turns out everybody's misrepresenting their views right now.

 

Mel Robbins (00:03:44):

You feel like there's this big cost if you just don't go with the flow or you just don't agree or you just don't do what you think everybody else wants you to do, whether it's your family or at work or with your friend group. And so where I want to start is you write a lot in your bestselling book, collective Illusions about the fact that we are fundamentally wired to conform. What does that mean, Todd?

 

Todd Rose (00:04:08):

Yeah, this is really important to bring up because when we talk about conformity, it kind of has a negative connotation, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:14):

Yes.

 

Todd Rose (00:04:15):

Nobody wants to admit they conform to something, but here's what's important. We are hardwired to belong to groups,

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:22):

Okay?

 

Todd Rose (00:04:22):

Evolutionarily, this is how we survive. And that belonging can lead to conformity when we feel like we have to distort who we are to get that belonging. And if you don't mind, let me give you an example,

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:32):

Please.

 

Todd Rose (00:04:33):

I'm going to tell you about what I think is my favorite study ever. I can't believe he got funded to do it. A colleague of mine in the Netherlands back in 2009 was a little skeptical about this conformity, how deep it really went. He said, what's the most subjective thing I could possibly imagine and see if conformity exists there? So he decided it was who you think is good looking because look, beauty's in the eye of the holder and there's no social pressure to be like, you should think they're attractive because I do. So he does this clever study. He puts people in FMRI scanners and he does a version of hot, or not, really. This is why I can't believe he got funded. He gets people, he shows them a couple hundred faces and he asks them to rate them on their attractiveness from one to five, one, no thank you, five being yes, please. Which by the way, you do that kind of stuff on the street. You're a creep.

 

(00:05:24):

You do it in a scanner, you're a scientist. But here's what's wild. So you're in that scanner and you see a face and you say, well, I think that's a five pretty attractive. What happens next is instantly you are shown another number, which is supposed to represent the average score of everyone who's done this task before you.

 

Mel Robbins (00:05:43):

Okay? So if I just ranked somebody a five. And then all of a sudden I'm shown, well, everybody else said they were three.

 

Todd Rose (00:05:49):

Yes, exactly right? And then we're going to watch what happens in your brain. And here's the thing, that group number was completely made up. There was no other group. It's just you and it was engineered so that half the time you're told that you and your group are lockstep. You said five, the group said five,

 

(00:06:11):

And on some of the trials it makes it wildly different. You said five, the group said one. Now here's what was crazy on the trials where you and your group were aligned, it triggers what we call a reward signal in your brain. It's the same areas that hard drugs activate and it's meant to tell you whatever you're doing, keep doing it. This is amazing. Right? On the trials where you were like five and they said one, it triggers what's called an error signal in your brain. It's this cascading electrical signal that disrupts memory, attention, everything. It's meant to get you to stop because something you're doing is wrong and you might be in danger. So this is what happens in your brain, but that's not even the most interesting thing. The clever part was then at the end of this study, you're in the task. They come and say, oh, I'm so sorry. For some reason the equipment didn't record your responses. Would you mind just quickly doing the task again? We're not going to record your brain just quickly do the task again. They randomized the couple hundred pictures. They get you to rate 'em again. Lo and behold, most people moved their scores to align with the group and they didn't even know they did it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:07:22):

Wow.

 

Todd Rose (00:07:22):

You interview 'em after, they're like, no, that didn't affect me at all. So when I say it's hardwired, that's what I mean. Even as something as subjective as attractiveness. We just want to be with our groups and there's a lot that we'll do to maintain that group alignment.

 

Mel Robbins (00:07:36):

I think it's fascinating that there is an error signal in your brain that when you recognize that you're not conforming with groupthink or group look or group opinion, that automatically signals that you're on the outside and you need to stop. And I want to give you another example to see if I'm tracking with this. This just happened to me the other night. A lot of people, I am starting to really care more about my health and one of the things I'm cutting way back on is alcohol. And so I have this rule with myself that I'm just not going to drink during the week. Now, fast forward to last night, I'm out at a restaurant after work and one of my colleagues turns to me and says, I come out have a glass of wine. You want to have a glass of wine? Okay? Can you explain using the research what just happened? Because here's the thing. I know I was going to go in there and order a diet coke or a club soda or whatever. The second somebody asked me, Hey, you want to have something? I make a decision reeflects it.

 

Todd Rose (00:08:40):

Didn't even contemplate it, you just went with it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:08:42):

Well, Todd, you wrote the book on this. So what happened? Think that's an example of why this is a really important thing to understand that is happening in your physiology and your neurology and biology. So what's happening?

 

Todd Rose (00:08:54):

It's coming to that need to belong that we just talked about and the possibility of conformity there because the norm in our society is when you go out socially, you drink and people that don't drink aren't fun. That's the stereotype. At the same time, you don't want to go against the grain.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:09):

Yes. But do you know what's interesting? If I had said to my colleague, I'm just not drinking during the week right now, I don't think I'm have any, you know what? They probably would've said,

 

Todd Rose (00:09:18):

I'm not drinking.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:18):

I don't think I would have anything either.

 

Todd Rose (00:09:19):

And that's the thing is because you don't have the simple tips and tricks that you can use to not put yourself in that well, I don't want to come off as something I don't think I am. I think I'm fun. I think I'm social. I like to hang out with people. So something like, you know what? I decided to take a month off. Or you know what I decided I'm not drinking on weekdays. Then it doesn't say, I'm not someone who drinks. Right? It's I've made that choice. And you'd be shocked how many people, the person said, Hey, I'm having a drink. We are at a table with a bunch of people and we're like, okay, fine. And then everyone sees two people do it. And you're like, okay, there's a lot of pressure building as they come to you wnd what will you have, sir? I'm like, I'll have What they're having is just

Mel Robbins (00:10:10):

No.

 

Todd Rose (00:10:11):

But what you'll do is you'll give them permission to do the same thing. Try it out. It's amazing. Once you realize how many people end up copying you, you'll see just how profoundly we're affected by what we believe other people believe and expect of us.

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:26):

What is happening in that moment where you say, okay, I'll have what they're having. What's happening in your brain?

 

Todd Rose (00:10:33):

So remember we talked about that reward response. So your brain has what's called an anticipated reward response. We know that when we're aligned with our group, it feels really good and we want that. It's not quite like drug addiction, but it's in that ballpark where once you're addicted to that drug, you're chasing the drug. Everything is about, I want that feeling again,

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:52):

Of belonging.

 

Todd Rose (00:10:54):

Of belonging.

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:54):

And we're talking about a deeper sense that's wired in you.

 

Todd Rose (00:10:58):

It's so deep and it's really important. And again, I want to say there's nothing wrong with wanting to belong. You should want to belong. And you just have to understand when that need to belong, tips into being controlled or manipulated or bottom line just leads you to do things that go against your own judgment, that's when you start making really bad decisions.

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:19):

I'm really excited because I feel like this is one of those hidden levers that we don't realize is just operating in the background. And when you understand what you're dealing with, you have so much more power of it.

 

Todd Rose (00:11:33):

That's right. After I was booked through on the show, I actually dug in and read your book, let them, and I got to tell you, there are so many parallels when we get into all the tools later on, we'll be able to dig into that a little bit more. There's just so much overlap. I'm excited to dig in.

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:47):

That's a huge compliment. We'll get into the tools later, but there's so much more about your research that I want to make sure that we get to and understand. One of the terms I'd love to have you talk a little bit about is this term collective illusions. It's the title of your bestselling book. Can you define in very plain terms, what is a collective illusion?

 

Todd Rose (00:12:07):

Collective illusion is groupthink, but you're wrong about the group. Let me unpack that just a little bit. It formally is a phenomenon where most people in a group go along with something they don't privately agree with simply because they incorrectly think that most other people agree with it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:12:25):

Okay, give me an example.

 

Todd Rose (00:12:26):

So one of the most sticky collective illusions of all that's been around for multiple decades that we've tracked is this binge drinking in college. So kids leave home, they go to a new place, they're like, what does it mean to be a college student here? And they all think that most kids binge drink, and so they go to a party and they end up binge drinking. When in reality, in private, we know, as a matter of fact, most college kids are deeply skeptical about binge drinking. They know it's bad, but it's what they feel like they need to do to belong to be a college student. And it turns out was what we can talk about later, no amount of trying to tell them how bad drinking is works. In fact, it propagates the illusion,

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:10):

Oh, that it's a problem and that everybody's doing it.

 

Todd Rose (00:13:12):

Yeah. Why would all the administration put all these posters up telling us about the dangers of binge drinking if people weren't binge drinking? And so it ends up fueling the illusion. And so what you need is to have social proof where you have popular kids, other people just being like, I don't binge drink. Why would I binge drink? You can't lecture or try to persuade. You have to just reveal. But this happens all the time. What's crazy is the phenomenon of collective illusions we've known for about a hundred years in research. It goes back further obviously, because the Emperor's New Clothes

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:45):

Oh yeah.

 

Todd Rose (00:13:46):

Is about collective illusions.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:48):

Unpack that for the person that doesn't know what the Emperor's New Clothes is.

 

Todd Rose (00:13:50):

It's the story of the parable of the Emperor gets convinced by some huckster that they can spin the most beautiful clothing ever made. And it's so fine that it's invisible to everyone except for people who are worthy of their station in life. And the emperors were like, obviously, I'm worthy of it. So they make up this and they fake. They're putting it on him, and he's like, well, obviously I can see it. If I say I can't see it, then I must not be worthy of being in charge of everything. And then everybody around him wants power and wants to be close to it. So they don't want to say You're buck naked. And then the king's prancing around going outside naked. All the crowds line up, they're cheering because no one wants to say it. And then one little kid is like, why are you naked? The innocence of the child to be just asked the obvious question and then the illusion shatters. So obviously this has been a problem in humanity for a very long time. What's interesting is up until just recently, the number of illusions, collective illusions that have harmed us as a society were pretty small.

 

(00:15:00):

But you put it into the social media age and it's just exploded to the point where now name anything that matters in life. It's a coin toss. Whether or not you're just wrong about what your community believes now.

 

Mel Robbins (00:15:13):

Well, I also think the experience we all have when you go online and it looks like every single person, I mean, I'm a 57-year-old woman, so it's largely menopause and interior design and health products. Every single person is taking the exact same brand of supplement. Every single person is wearing this exact makeup line. Every single person is buying this particular couch. And I feel like, oh my God, I'm missing out. Everybody has that thing and it does feel like it's gotten worse. And then my daughter was talking today, well, I'm getting targeted for a cellulite foam roller that I'm about to buy because it looks like everybody that I follow online is using it. And so what are some of the collective illusions that you can point to in day-to-day life that we may not be aware that that's what that is?

 

Todd Rose (00:16:00):

Well, let's hit on those. But when we think about how is it that we could end up being so wrong about the groups that matter so much to us, it's kind of weird that that would be true, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:11):

Yes.

 

Todd Rose (00:16:11):

Lemme show you two things. One, how they happen in day-to-day life without anybody trying to manipulate you. And then let's talk about what social media does at the societal level.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:21):

Great.

 

Todd Rose (00:16:22):

And I think people will have some similar experience. I can remember the first time that I actually experienced a collective illusion. When was that? So growing up, I was kind of a problematic child, which I'm sure we can talk about and didn't really fit in except for my grandmother, who was my second mom. Whenever I was with her, I could just be myself and I was good enough.

 

(00:16:46):

And she decided, I mean, they were very, very poor. She had me come and sleep over as a kid once a month, just me. Literally no other grandkids got this. And when I was there, she'd make a bologna sandwich in her little house, little tiny kitchen kitchenette would play yazi together and we'd just talk and I could share anything with her stuff. I couldn't tell my parents, whatever. It was literally amazing. It was this oasis for me in a really tough environment. We've been sleeping over, sleeping over, sleeping over. Then one time she says, Hey, good news. I'm taking you to Sizzler, your grandpa and I this steakhouse, this all you can eat steakhouse. And I was like, I don't really want to go to, it's noisy there. I just want to be here. But I knew it meant a lot to them.

 

(00:17:33):

So I went with it. And that's what we started doing. Instead of just playing yazi, we'd go to Sizzler. And that went on for six years. So in 2015, we found out she was dying, and I went back to Utah where I was born to say goodbye to her. And I was preparing. I was like, my last conversation I'm ever going to have with this woman that meant the world to me, and I'm holding her hand and we're talking about a lot of things. And I thought, I want to just let her know how transformative those sleepovers were to me. And I said, grandma, I just want to tell you all those times sleeping over. She's like barely can get a word out. And she says, she touches my arm. She says, I know what mattered most to you. It was going to Sizzler. And I was like, wait, what?

 

(00:18:19):

I didn't have the heart to be like, I didn't like that at all. Right? But she said, just to be honest, your grandpa and I didn't really like going to Sizzler, but we knew it meant a lot to you. So I'm sitting there thinking, wait, we all ended up going to Sizzler once a month for six years. We all thought we all wanted to go to Sizzler when nobody actually did. Again, I didn't have the heart to tell her on her deathbed she could have me for a baloney sandwich, but that kind of like nobody was manipulating anyone. We care about each other. We want each other to be happy and we can misread each other. And then just like the drink example, nobody wants to question it and we just keep doing it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:00):

Well, you're making my wheels spin now where I'm sitting here thinking, what are we all continuing to do as a family that we all think we're supposed to be doing? It could even be something as simple as we've always had the same meal for a certain holiday. Nobody actually likes it. Why are we not just doing something different and talking about it?

 

Todd Rose (00:19:24):

I promise you do me one favor is just go to your family or your significant other and think about the things you do on a routine basis.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:34):

Okay? So give us some examples.

 

Todd Rose (00:19:36):

I have friends that have, every Friday we have salmon night and we watch a movie. Maybe everybody wants to do that. It could be true. It's these basic day-to-day things and just say, Hey, honestly, do we still like doing this? You know what I mean? And just ask, you'll be shocked at how many of these someones go, well, actually, if you give me the permission to be honest, actually, maybe we could shake that up a bit. So if illusions can happen amongst tightly knit relationships, it's not surprising that they can happen in a country of 300 million people at a societal level. Think about you have all these identities and you're tied to these groups that matter to you, but they consist of people you're probably never going to meet. And you have to guess what does that group believe? You know what I mean? So I can know what it is I'm trying to align to. And here's the thing about your brain that is just crazy, is how your brain estimates what your group believes. You'd imagine given how important it is with conformity and belonging, that you have some sophisticated way that your brain calculates, like on average, this is what my group believes. Now there's a shortcut your brain takes. No kidding. Your brain assumes the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority,

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:56):

The loudest voices repeated the most repeated the most are the majority

 

Todd Rose (00:21:00):

Are the majority. Even when you know it's not true, even intellectually, oh, this is just male telling me this over and over again. Yes, your brain is keeping score this way. So it must have worked. You've evolved to have this shortcut, but you put that into a social media age.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:17):

Yes.

 

Todd Rose (00:21:17):

Okay, so here's a stat that blows my mind.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:19):

Okay?

 

Todd Rose (00:21:19):

If you take what was Twitter, which is now, X research has shown that 80% of all the content on that platform is generated by only 10% of the users.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:33):

80% of the content you're reading on X is generated by 10%

 

Todd Rose (00:21:36):

By 10%. And here's the trick. Pew research has found that that 10% isn't remotely representative of the general public. They are extreme on almost every social issue. But you could see the problem here. Let's say 10% of people hold some view, but you think it's 80%.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:56):

I think that's what's happened.

 

Todd Rose (00:21:58):

That error signal kicks in. Unless you're willing to override that and go against what you think your group believes, what do you do? You end up self silencing. You say nothing or worse, you start saying what you think people want to hear. So you can be part of the group. And when enough people self silence, the only people left are the people on the fringes,

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:21):

The 10% that are the loudest repeating everything that we then say, oh,

 

Todd Rose (00:22:26):

This is what we believe.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:27):

Well, everybody that's part of that party must believe that clearly everybody that follows that person must believe that. Correct? And what you're basically saying is the research is very conclusive. That's absolutely not true,

 

Todd Rose (00:22:38):

Not true.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:39):

The loudest voices don't represent the majority.

 

Todd Rose (00:22:41):

They don't. In fact, they almost never do. They wouldn't have to be so loud if you knew everybody agreed with you. You don't have to say much, but you can see how this is where then you get these societal level collective illusions. We're self silencing. And our data on this is we have more private opinion data on the American public than any organization. I'm quite certain of almost two thirds of people are admitting that they are self silencing right now. That means withholding things that matter to them because they think other people disagree. This is a very dangerous place to be when we can't even be honest with each other. And so the problem with that is as these illusions form, so now I'm thinking, wow, most people, what happened? What happened to society? Am I crazy or did everybody else seem to go crazy? And it's like you start feeling alienated from your group, isolated, a little bit resentful that you're having to self silence. And we see this in the data. You start losing trust in other people and life gets much worse for you. But it also gets much worse for the rest of us because as a result, we end up with this false polarization. We feel like we're completely divided and it becomes self-fulfilling.

 

Mel Robbins (00:23:55):

Yes,

 

Todd Rose (00:23:56):

We lose trust in each other and we become resentful.

 

Mel Robbins (00:23:59):

Now, I want to make sure that I'm unpacking this. I think this is so important what you're saying, and it is so important that you really take in, and I'm going to now call you Dr. Todd Rose, what he is saying about the data, because this is something that I've held in my heart that has made me very sad and has also made me pull back and feel discouraged. I've bought into the collective illusion of what the loudest voices you're saying, it's the 10% the fringe are saying. And I have presumed that the majority of people believe in this.

 

Todd Rose (00:24:38):

We're the first generation now as a society that has to deal with collective illusions at scale because of social media. You cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. You can't. And that's a hard thing to overcome. And when you put it into social media environment, even if there's no bad actors, just the dynamics of that, the loudest voices, we'll guarantee that you're going to be wrong the longer you spend time on there. But it gets even worse. So my organization has partnered with other organizations. We've been studying the way in which foreign entities that are trying to disrupt us have built, bought armies, Russia, China. They have millions of bots, some of them AI enabled now, and we often think when it's propaganda manipulation that they're just spreading disinformation. It's not what they do at all.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:28):

What do they do?

 

Todd Rose (00:25:29):

The new form of propaganda is the ability to manufacture a collective illusion to convince you.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:33):

So meaning literally convince you, put you in the matrix of what they want you to believe by just peppering

 

Todd Rose (00:25:39):

Intentionally targeting, especially Gen Z, to convince them that their communities believe things they don't and that need to belong kicks in. I mean, we're talking about, so we know on social media writ large that roughly one fourth of all the interactions you ever have are with bots and you don't know it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:59):

Say that again,

 

Todd Rose (00:26:00):

One fourth and that's conservative. One fourth of all your interactions on social media are with bots and you don't know it. And with AI enabled bots, you wouldn't be able to tell. They are so sophisticated. So you just have to be careful to know. If you just get to that point and understand this concept of a collective illusion group, think, but you're wrong about the group. Why would you conform? If you conform to something your group doesn't want, you're destroying the group you actually care about.

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:29):

Let me just unpack this. I really do think this is critical, that a quarter of the content that you interact with online are bots and that you believe that's conservative, that the bots are programmed to convince you to believe something that the majority of people do not agree with.

 

(00:26:51):

And I also will extrapolate that that is why it is more important than ever that you stop conforming and you actually take a step back and you deeply connect with what's important to you, and that you find the courage to start speaking up because everybody else is waiting for somebody else to go first. I believe regardless of how you voted, regardless of what country you live in, there is this deep weariness within families, within communities, within friend groups to even talk about anything because we convince ourselves that they believe what the bots and the 10% loudest voices believe. And they don't. And you're here to tell us that they don't believe that at all.

 

Todd Rose (00:27:36):

They absolutely do not. I mean, we have the data. You can download all of the, we've studied everything from the kind of lives people want to live the kind of country they want to live in,

Mel Robbins (00:28:11):

It's true because

 

Todd Rose (00:28:12):

Nobody's speaking up, speaking up to the people that matter most to us.

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:14):

It's friends reach yelling at each other.

 

Todd Rose (00:28:16):

And so we all become caricatures of some fringe view that nobody really holds. And so one of the things that I've been the most proud of is, and the reason why I wanted to write this book is you give people a concept and people go, oh, wow, I didn't realize this. And then it opens up the ability to start talking about, well, wait a minute, here's some of the things. I think it's a safe way to have the conversation.

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:41):

Well, just even hearing that your data conclusively shows that the majority of people literally agree on the things that they care about and want out of life. It makes me go really, because I've been in a duck and cover mode. When is this madness going to end? When are we going to reconnect with what matters? I kind of know that everybody agrees, but why isn't anybody, why is there not a reasonable person like, oh, I know a reasonable person doesn't want to stand up and get caught in this crossfire. That's why we're all like, okay, when is somebody normal going to pop up and show us the way? But you're here to say, we all have the ability to do this.

 

Todd Rose (00:29:17):

We do. And it's only we can do this because if you think about it, there are people who profit from the illusions,

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:24):

Correct.

 

Todd Rose (00:29:24):

And especially in a binary political system, there's a lot of benefit to getting people to be more extreme and locked into an identity where you'll fall on that sword because these are my people.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:38):

Can you share the data on what people actually agree on and care about, so that as you're listening and watching, this is an incredible episode to send to family members and to send to friends that you feel like you can't talk to anymore because you believe the collective illusion that they somehow don't agree with you on core things. So what does this a to say about what people actually care about?

 

Todd Rose (00:30:04):

For sure. So let's take a few things. We can go all day on this, which is pretty incredible. So we studied the American aspirations of index. So this was a US focused one, and we studied what do you want for the country? And there were dozens and dozens and dozens of possibilities. And what was shocking to me, we found that in the top 10 aspirations for the country, we agreed on eight out of the 10 individual rights.

 

(00:30:31):

We still believe that in free speech, treating each other with respect, having everyone have high quality healthcare. So there's a basic kind of life we want to live together, and we know that we owe each other certain things to make that life possible. And it turns out we agree on that. Now, as you said earlier, back in the day, we might disagree on how we do it. Do you have Medicare for all? Do you have more like romneycare we'd had in Massachusetts? There are different ways that we can debate how to get it done, but it turns out the ultimate aims were shockingly similar on.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:07):

Well, I find it extraordinarily encouraging to hear that underneath all the noise of the loudest voices in the division and the bots that human beings agree on, eight out of the 10 things that are the most important things, what did you find about our personal lives? How do people want to live? And how do we break us? Tell me the list on what we agree on, and then let's unpack that.

 

Todd Rose (00:31:35):

So probably the single most important study we've ever done that I think has the most implications for society and for individuals is it's called the success index.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:48):

The success index.

 

Todd Rose (00:31:49):

And we wanted to know, what do you mean by a successful life for you? What kind of life do you want to live? Nothing's more important than you feeling like you're living the kind of life that you want to live, even if no one else wants to live it, right? That's literally the American dream. That's literally the key to flourishing. It's the key to social trust, it's key to everything. So we did this, I mean, massive private opinion study with the same kind of trade-offs because you can't have everything in life. We had 61 possible attributes for a good life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:23):

Everything from, so you can pick

 

Todd Rose (00:32:23):

Between 61, everything from having a family to being the richest person and everything in between. And then you force the trade-offs in this way that gives you anonymity and plausible.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:34):

So you have to rank what you want.

 

Todd Rose (00:32:35):

It's amazing. We can go into details on how they do it. There's some stuff on our site that'll show you it's really cool, but you can't game it. It's so good at getting at private views.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:44):

Okay,

 

Todd Rose (00:32:45):

So let's talk about what most people see in terms of their top priorities for a good life. It warms my heart. The number one priority for a successful life is I want to do work that has a positive impact on other people. They want to contribute. In that top 10 across all demographics were things to do with relationships, family, character, self-improvement and growth. In fact, one of the really crazy ones that I think is important is across every demographic in the top 10 was I want to be more engaged in my community. Now, here's what's interesting. We also measure how well you're achieving on these different things involved in your community was the lowest achieved of all top 10 priorities for your life. In fact, more people reported being debt-free than involved in their community at the level they want to. I mean,

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:45):

What does that tell you as a researcher?

 

Todd Rose (00:33:46):

It tells me that, well, we've lost that civic layer of society that gave us the way to engage and contribute, and they don't know how to do it. And by the way,

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:56):

And then if you also assume,

 

Todd Rose (00:33:57):

So that's where we're going to get

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:58):

That nobody agrees with you and everybody.

 

Todd Rose (00:34:01):

So this is when we ask. So what do you think most people see as successful life? Same trade-offs, things. It flips entirely. They think everyone is obsessed with status wealth, getting into the most prestigious school, the top thing that people think everyone else cares about is being famous.

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:21):

Really?

 

Todd Rose (00:34:22):

Okay, in private, it's dead last. Now let me unpack why that really matters, okay? Because there's an important thing about collective illusions, which is this.

Mel Robbins (00:34:39):

Say that again.

 

Todd Rose (00:34:40):

This generation's collective illusions tend to become next generation's private opinion. Let's use the example of fame because young kids don't know that we're lying. So young kids look to culture, look to media, look to each other, what do we believe? What do we aspire to? So my colleagues at UCLA have tracked the effects of culture in media on middle school kids for a very long time. Up until a few years ago, the top thing that emerged every year had to do with character. Think like Mr. Rogers kind of stuff, right? Wonderful. A few years ago, it switched to I want to be famous, and it hasn't changed back. I remember they interviewed one kid in the study and he said, I want to have a million followers. And he said, okay, for what? And he said, doesn't matter. So it's bad enough when these illusions lead our young kids to pursue dead ends that we know we, that's not how you live a good life. That's bad enough. But when it starts to become about the fundamental assumptions of democracy, of free society, of our shared humanity, you can see the real danger to us individually and collectively.

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:53):

So if this generation's collective illusion is that the number one aspiration in life is being famous because they have bought into the lie that that's what everybody else prioritizes and values, that's what everybody else thinks, matters. How does that impact the next generation when it comes to their private opinion?

 

Todd Rose (00:36:17):

So because again, they don't know it's a lie, and they're looking to society to tell them initially what to value. We're social species.We internalize the norms, the aspirations. What does it mean to succeed? And they will internalize that as well. That's what I believe. I mean, they genuinely believe it. They're not lying. The kids aren't lying. They'll learn the hard way. Again, just like we all have that, that's a really bad way to think about living a good life. But that's really sad. I mean, it has to come to that. At the end of the day, what's so important about this, and we can talk about why when it comes to collective illusions, it's about individuals. It's about authenticity. Authenticity is the kryptonite of collective illusions. Silence is never the answer. Authenticity always is.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:06):

So is the reason why so many people are miserable as they're chasing success is because they're chasing a version of success that they believe other people have.

 

Todd Rose (00:37:17):

And let's be fair to all of us. We want to be successful on our own terms, and we also would love to be recognized for that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:25):

But for what?

 

Todd Rose (00:37:26):

So if I think being successful is finding fulfillment and doing something, literally most people's view of success is getting meaning in their life by contributing to the lives of other people. That's literally, if I could sum it up right, yes. Well, I want to do that, but I would also love that you recognize that I do that and it's valuable. Nothing wrong with wanting society to recognize my accomplishments, my aspirations and validate them. The slippery slope is I can without thinking. Just like with your drinking example where you're like, I didn't even think about it, and suddenly I'm having a glass of wine. Without thinking about it, we can easily slip into wanting their affirmation first and corrupting what we choose to do as a result. And I'll give you why this matters. In our research, we linked achievement on that success index to life satisfaction. How happy are you with your life? Here's what was amazing, to the extent that you were achieving on your private priorities.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:24):

And just to make sure I'm tracking with you, people publicly say, I want the fame. I want the house, I want the car. I want the followers.

 

Todd Rose (00:38:32):

I want the fancy car, the biggest house.

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:34):

But what secretly matters to you is your family, your friendships,

 

Todd Rose (00:38:39):

My community,

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:39):

My community

 

Todd Rose (00:38:40):

Being a good person. If you achieve on those, it directly increases life satisfaction. In fact, just

 

Mel Robbins (00:38:46):

If you directly achieve on the things that are private,

 

Todd Rose (00:38:49):

Yes. And here's the thing, it was such a big effect. People are only achieving about 50% of their own priorities right now. If you bump that up by just 20 points, which is actually not hard when what we care about is being a good person and being involved in your community. Anyone can do that, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:04):

Yeah.

 

Todd Rose (00:39:05):

It led to an increase in life satisfaction that was the same as doubling your salary.

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:11):

Wow,

 

Todd Rose (00:39:11):

Okay, so it's a big deal, but now flip it around. No amount of achievement on what you think other people value increases life satisfaction at all. It is an absolute dead end mean. So this is what I say, this sort of personal success, I think is the most important illusion we've ever found because it completely corrupts your own life. It leads to misery, and it's the one illusion that only you can solve. You have the power right now to solve that one, right? You don't need anyone's permission to start making different choices about the life you live

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:48):

To get honest with yourself about what privately matters and to stop obsessing about what you think everybody else thinks because you're here to tell us. All of that is an illusion. What you think other people think isn't even what they privately believe, right?

 

Todd Rose (00:40:05):

The group doesn't even believe the thing that you're about to conform to. And so when you do it and enough of us do it, we literally destroy the very group that we care about.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:15):

And when you listen, and that's why I love this conversation. You're being reminded of the things that privately deep down or true, and that you can from this moment forward, start living your life with the truth because the data shows it.

 

Todd Rose (00:40:33):

Ask yourself, how would you behave if you knew for sure that this thing was an illusion? If you knew for sure your group didn't believe the thing that this fringe is just shouting at you,

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:44):

Well, you'd probably be talking to your friends, mark, you'd probably be involved in your community. You'd probably wear what you want to wear. You'd probably speak up more. Because what happens when you recognize so much of the noise is noise? And 80% of us, based on the eight out of 10 data that you have been crunching really want the same things. We may disagree a little bit on how to achieve it, but we want the same things. And the kryptonite you said to exploding all of this noise is you personally starting to make decisions day by day, conversation by conversation moment by moment that really align with those deeper things that you want for yourself.

 

Todd Rose (00:41:33):

This is how we live our lives. And the illusion that's darkening our doorstep here.

 

(00:41:38):

Because if you look at the research on what happens when we self silence, so let's look at the downside of it and then look at the upside of being authentic. The downside of self silencing is shocking. Okay? So research that followed longitudinally, people who were self silencing and people who weren't self silencers actually have dramatically higher rates of cardiovascular disease, strokes, high cholesterol, everything. And there's a mechanism for it, which is basically when you are self silencer or misrepresenting your views, you get this cognitive dissonance, this kind of like, I know I'm not being honest. Cortisol levels elevate and they stay elevated. And cortisol is good in the short term when you're under threat and absolutely toxic breaks down blood vessels, everything. The study I'm referring to actually tracked women who have much higher rates of self silencing and just found, when you look at all the gaps in mental health issues, there's usually a gender gap, eating disorders, depression, anxiety,

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:41):

Autoimmune disorders

 

Todd Rose (00:42:42):

Auto autoimmune disorders. When you control for rates of self silencing, the gender gap disappears. This is a big deal. This is a big deal for your physical health.

 

Mel Robbins (00:42:52):

What does that mean to the person listening? Who knows that you're the person that stays silent in meetings? You're the person that doesn't rock the boat. So you're in conflict with your privately held beliefs with yourself, and you're living like that. And what you're saying is based on the research, women do this more than men, and there's lots of reasons why. But in the data, when you look at people who are self silencers, it has massively negative health outcomes. But when you remove the gender piece,

 

Todd Rose (00:43:26):

When you remove the self silencing, the effect of that,

 

Mel Robbins (00:43:30):

Yes,

 

Todd Rose (00:43:30):

It turns out there isn't a gender gap in those things. It's about self silencing. That's not everything. There's lots of reasons why we can end up with anxiety, but I think the reason I say this is that when we selfs silence, I think we tend to think that it's sort of benign. There's not much of a cost. I don't feel so good, but look, I get to fit in. What I want to show you is no, there is a profound cost to your physical health. There is a cost to your psychological health. I mean self signs against correlated with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, all these things. And there is a cost to humanity in the false polarization, the distrust, the resentment that is pervasive in society today. And democracies do not survive this kind of threat. And I will say one thing, which is one of my favorite psychologists, the humanist, Carl Rogers said, all of problems in society from nations against nations, groups against groups boil down to individuals at war with themselves. When we start to misrepresent our views, when we self silence to fit in, we're at war with ourselves.

 

Mel Robbins (00:44:49):

You're creating this war internally because you're forcing yourself to stay silent on something you don't agree with.

 

Todd Rose (00:44:55):

That's right. So you're internalizing all the downside and you don't recognize it. And it's funny is we don't connect those dots. We start seeing our health start to fail. We see our mental health start to deteriorate, and we look for all these reasons. I don't think it's coincidental. I don't think this is the only cause, but I don't think it's coincidental that our youngest generation that was literally born online has this skyrocketing anxiety and mental health challenges that are real, and they're coming from a number of places. But for sure,

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:23):

One, we control

 

Todd Rose (00:45:24):

This because we know in our data that Gen Z is self silencing at the highest rate of any demographic that we've ever studied.

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:32):

Why is that?

 

Todd Rose (00:45:32):

Because they're online more than anybody else.

 

Mel Robbins (00:45:35):

And how does being online all the time reinforce this self silencing?

 

Todd Rose (00:45:41):

Because when I'm in person, I get a lot more cues. First of all, I know they're real people. I know a lot of them. When I'm online, I'm getting inundated with likes, with stuff pushed to me repeatedly. And remember, your brain's going loudest. Voices repeated. The most are the majority. And so on almost everything, especially when you're in those formative years, what do I believe? Who am I? What do I aspire to? They're being shaped by illusions in ways that none of us have ever really experienced. Those of us that at least remember a time when there wasn't social media. And again, I'm not saying social media is bad, it's got a lot of upside, but any technology, there's always a downside. And if you don't recognize the downside, you're going to live it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:46:28):

I think as a parent, my heart just collapsed because I see that paralysis in self-expression, this fear that it's going to be cringey, fear that somebody is going to judge it, fear that you're not going to get the likes that you want, which is all driven by conformity, which then has you A, silence yourself, and then B, now operate online in a way that you think gets people to like you because we're wired for conformity. So how do you break this? Given that we're wired for conformity and we understand how self silence, because self silence at work, you don't talk in meetings, self silence at works, you don't raise problems. You don't talk about the mistakes that happened and how you solve them. Self silence. You start to operate the way everybody else does because you think that's the way you get ahead.

 

Todd Rose (00:47:23):

That's right. And by the way, when everyone starts doing that and starts conforming groups, lose their vitality, groups lose their purpose. A purpose of a group is not blind conformity. It's that we're better together. It's that we can cooperate. It's that we can exchange ideas that I can learn from you and be like, maybe I'm wrong. But that loses its function and it just becomes this blind tribalism where we're just like, now who's our enemy? Okay, we're good because they're losing. It's pretty horrific. The trick is, if you care about living a good life, authenticity is everything. And by the way, lemme just be clear. Authenticity doesn't mean you even know all the facts about yourself. It's that you are acting in accordance with who you believe you are in that moment. That's the win. It doesn't mean you're right.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:13):

Give me an example.

 

Todd Rose (00:48:13):

So I could believe that I care about football. It's my preference. I love it so much. My mom taught me it, it matters. I do actually care quite a bit about it, and so I express myself that way. I follow the Patriots. It's a little tough right now, but we'll get back. But let's say it turns out I buy season tickets and I go and I'm like, actually, I don't actually like football anymore. Or maybe I never did. I just thought I did. It wasn't about being accurate. It's that the choice I made at the time was consistent with who I believe I am. All the benefits of authenticity accrue from that, not from being accurate.

 

Mel Robbins (00:48:59):

So in other words, you buying the Patriot tickets is an authentic decision.

Todd Rose (00:49:15):

Quite literally,

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:16):

Yes. And you're like, I don't think I like this anymore.And that is also an authentic decision. I had the same experience. I grew up skiing, love skiing, love skiing with my parents, love skiing in northern Michigan. Then I didn't ski for a while. Then I married a guy who's a ski racer, and you know what I learned? I don't like skiing that much, and I can tell you an opposite one, golf, hate golf. No time for golf, don't care about golf, didn't get golf. Don't understand why people watch golf. Then all of a sudden, I'm riding on a golf cart with my husband and we're chatting and talking. I just want to spend some time with them. Then I'm doing it with my parents and I'm like, wow, it's kind of beautiful out here. Wow, we're talking a lot. Guess what?

 

Todd Rose (00:49:57):

Turns out

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:57):

I'm now thinking I might want to play golf. And that's authentic,

 

Todd Rose (00:50:00):

Correct. Because remember, what we don't want is for you to stop growing and changing. So at any moment you have a set of beliefs about yourself, and as long as they're aligned with who you believe you are, you get all the benefits of authenticity, which they are incredible. A level of confidence that will just blow your mind, not arrogance, just a deep confidence in yourself and your ability to make decisions. People who are authentic actually have higher levels of viewing the world as positive some, which it is. There's enough, and we can grow the pie, not just materialistically, but psychologically and spiritually. Your success does not hurt me. It actually benefits me. We can all win. But more importantly, authentic people have phenomenally better relationships because obviously, right? Because the thing, as we said a while back, we want belonging. What we end up giving into is fitting in.

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:56):

What is the difference between belonging and fitting in?

 

Todd Rose (00:51:00):

Belonging is when you are recognized, accepted, and even loved for who you are. So you have to do that for yourself first because no one's going to do that for you. But when you're in groups, and we've all felt this like me with my grandmother, I knew I was good enough, like flaws and all, it didn't matter. I didn't have to be somebody else, even in a small way for her to love me. When you have that kind of relationship, there's nothing better in the world, okay? Fitting in is you accept me if you accept me, if I like the things you like, if I do the things you want me to do, if I decide to be a computer scientist instead of an artist. So many of our relationships are built on that kind of if, and just like when you're not physically healthy, you forget what it feels like to be healthy. When we're used to fitting in, we forget what it feels like to truly belong. And I'll say this, and I'll say this to anyone listening or viewing, you deserve to belong. You should not accept the status of just fitting in. It's not good enough. It doesn't lead to the place that you want it to lead to, and it causes a lot of harm to you and society.

 

Mel Robbins (00:52:25):

What is the first step? Because I think as you're listening, what you just said is both a wake up call and it can be a little crushing to your soul. When you recognize your whole life, all you've tried to do is fit in,

 

(00:52:43):

And I know that everybody wants to feel like their authentic self. Everybody wants to be proud of themselves. You want to lay your head down on the pillow at night and know that you did the best that you could, made the best decisions that you could, that you're proud of how you showed up, that you had good intentions. That is the gold standard, that it was a good day because you tried the best that you could to be a good person, and that starts with you being, making good decisions for yourself and not self silencing to fit in. Here's the important part about authenticity. It is a process. It's not a destination. There's no such thing as you could put all the work you want in right now and you're like, I'm done. That's not how it works, because a flourishing life is one where you grow and change and discover and all that stuff. So even if you were a hundred percent right, right now, if you lock that in, you'd be inauthentic in the future. So the things that people need to understand is again, it's never too late. This is what's amazing, all the benefits of authenticity, the research shows they accrue very quickly to you. No matter how old you are, no matter where you're starting from, it's pretty amazing. You just have to get started. And here's the thing. There's two things from my perspective. The first is getting a handle on what you think you really believe.

 

(00:54:05):

How do you do that when you're been gaslit by all the noise?

 

Todd Rose (00:54:10):

Here's a very simple step that I've used and I've shared and people have used and it's worked. Ask yourself why On things you believe. You believe, because when they're your honest beliefs that you've arrived at, why? I'll give you an example. I have a deep commitment, like probably most people to human rights. It might be the most important concept to me of anything in the world that every individual has moral worth and we are equal to one another, and we are never ever a means to someone else's end. That's how I want to be viewed and treated. That's how I will view and treat other people. Human rights flows from dignity, so I know for sure I believe that, but you'll be shocked at how many things you think you believe are just the norms of your society that you've never really questioned because you want to fit in. For me, didn't do very well in school, and that's an understatement. I failed out of high school with a 0.9 GPA

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:11):

0.9? that's possible?

 

Todd Rose (00:55:13):

You have to work really hard to do that poorly. I ended up failing out a couple of months later. My girlfriend at the time, who was my wife for 29 years, found out she was pregnant, and this is rural Utah. This is not something one does in rural Utah. We were on welfare. We ended up with two kids. By the time I was 20 doing a string of minimum wage jobs. I mean, we had a paper route at 4:00 AM to supplement our income. We were selling blood plasma, all the things you have to do and recognizing rock bottom. I was working at what was Circuit City, which they've gone out of business now. And on my lunch break, I didn't have any money. So I went over to Barnes and Noble and I was perusing this self-help section. I had no self-esteem. I'd lied to myself a lot. I knew something had to change. And I happened upon a book called The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem. And Nathaniel Brandon said, self-esteem is not something you can directly act on. It's the alignment of your beliefs and your behavior. And if your behavior and beliefs don't align, you won't respect yourself. Why would you? But this was the nugget for me that completely changed my life. I had always assumed that my beliefs were my beliefs and that my behavior was what needed to change. But this book told me that's not true. That you may not actually believe the things you believe that you believe. And in my case, it was religious in nature.

 

(00:56:50):

I had tried so hard to align my behaviors to a set of beliefs that came from my religion, and I just failed a lot. And though those behaviors weren't bad behaviors, they were just inconsistent. And I thought, well, wait a minute. It could be my beliefs that are the thing that's causing the problem. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about, well, why do I believe this? And I realized I didn't believe. And once I recognized that and started on the path of thinking about who am I? What do I believe? Things got a lot easier. A lot easier.

 

Mel Robbins (00:57:25):

Why?

 

Todd Rose (00:57:25):

Because suddenly I knew the root problem. I was constantly trying to get my behavior to just like if you're trying to conform to a group, constantly trying to what am I supposed to do now? What do we do? How do I dress? What do I drink? What career do I choose? And once I had permission to start questioning my own beliefs, I was able to get on a different path. And it never would've changed without that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:57:53):

I think that's super profound. I think it's also crazy inspiring that you went from there to becoming a graduate school professor at Harvard and now running a think tank and doing this deeply important work. And I was so excited to have you on because I fundamentally refuse to believe that we are this divided. I fundamentally refuse to believe that people are unreasonable or lack character. I also fundamentally refuse to give that much power to all the noise. And one of the things that I want to hover on the authenticity piece, because when somebody walks into a room that is very much authentically themselves, whether they have on just a cool outfit or they have energy about them or there's a kindness to them, whatever it may be, you feel it.

 

Todd Rose (00:58:49):

The energy of that is unbelievable.

 

Mel Robbins (00:58:51):

It is intoxicating and it's not a level of arrogance. There is something that I truly believe that we're all yearning for it and we're looking for someone to give us the permission.

 

Todd Rose (00:59:08):

Permission. That's right. They're not trying to get you to do something, they just, I'm going to be me. You put it in different terms, let them let me. Right? And they're the embodiment of that. Some things happen because we so deeply want that. We gravitate toward the energy there is real, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:59:25):

So how do you cultivate that energy? You mentioned let them and let me, and you also when we were talking said that is a tool that really helps you apply this research and this data that let them, why don't you explain it? How can you use those two words? Let them,

 

Todd Rose (00:59:44):

That's it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:59:45):

And those two words, let me as a way for you to start to become more authentically yourself.

 

Todd Rose (00:59:52):

Well, this is why I was so excited to talk to you because my scientific research, the work we do at populace, my think tank is I would say what we've uncovered is the science behind Let them talked a lot about the conformity and all the problems there, but also the broader societal consequences of not doing that.

 

Mel Robbins (01:00:11):

Wow.

 

Todd Rose (01:00:12):

So what do we know about how we shatter illusions, how we get back to authenticity? And it's the practical stuff you need to do to get on that path. When I looked at, when I read your book, I was like, okay, this, if you just do this, it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not easy.

 

(01:00:31):

And so bringing it to a level of getting people on that journey, again, authenticity is a journey. It's process. It's not a destination. You can start anytime, anywhere, no matter how old you are, no matter what your circumstances. Then if all we did, and I'll tell you why, if you lean into let them, I mean you've framed a lot and I think it's right around how miserable we get when we try to control everybody else, but it goes a little further because as we start to participate in that sort of like you should believe what I'm saying too. And what's funny about collective illusions, and this is one of those, I could not believe this. So once you start lying about your views, the research is pretty clear. You start to lean into that, you become an enforcer of it.

 

Mel Robbins (01:01:18):

You don't want to admit you're wrong.

 

Todd Rose (01:01:19):

Yes. And because you always think people are going to find me out.

 

(01:01:23):

I know I'm lying. It's called the illusion of transparency. They think everyone can tell that I'm not really a true believer. And so it turns out that people who lie about their views have a high probability become enforcers of that view on other people. I'll give you a concrete example. If I hear, every time I hear a pastor now I'm like, they're probably gay the number of times that just turns out to be true. I'm like, yeah, you're protesting a bit much. Right? But once you're hiding that part of yourself, you start to become the person that's literally leads the witch hunt to prove like, no, look, I'm a true believer. And so don't be that person, right? Because the them part of it is the more you're seeking to control their people, not just their behavior but their beliefs. You are leading them down a path of self silencing that will be catastrophic for them. But now you also know