The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:00:02):

You don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:07):

Okay, I freaking love that. And we're all stealing that. What are the mistakes that people make when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:00:17):

They go in sort of righteous and resolute thinking, this is what an influential person looks like. This is what they sound like. They're decisive, they're convincing, they're compelling and strong, aren't they? Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel, and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them, just reminding them relentlessly, hey, I'm with you. I got your back. Yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things. That

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:50):

Right there is worth a million dollars. And let me tell you why. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, I just want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. And because you hit play on this episode and you found the time to listen to this, here's what I know about you. You're not only the kind of person that values your time, but you have a lot of ambition and you're looking for ways to advance your career and you're in the right place. Your ambition might mean that you want to make more money or land your dream job or just get the recognition and respect that you deserve at work.

 

(00:01:36):

Well, this conversation today is a must listen for you and for everyone that you care about because there are specific things that you can do based on the research to get what you deserve at work and in life. Everything that you're about to learn today comes from 15 years of research from Harvard Business School Professor Alison Wood Brooks. She also has a brand new book talk, which is all about the science of communication and it summarizes one of the most popular courses at HBS that she created and teaches. Now, professor Brooks took time to come over from her Harvard Business School classroom over across the river in Cambridge to be here in our Boston studios for one reason she's doing it for you. Now, to put this in context, if you were to even get into Harvard Business School, I know I probably couldn't. It would cost you over a hundred thousand dollars a year to attend, and today you are getting the biggest takeaways distilled down for free.

 

(00:02:37):

So if you have somebody in your life who needs to ask for a promotion or maybe there's someone that you know that is entering what is a very tough job market right now, this conversation today and everything that Professor Brooks is about to share is going to give you a leg up and the confidence boost you need. And we're also going to get into some groundbreaking research that changed my life. This is research that will help you nail any interview. It'll help you navigate a difficult conversation and destroy that presentation that's coming up no matter how nervous you may be. Class is in session and it's going to be a masterclass at that. Professor Allison Wood Brooks, thank you. Thank you, thank you for being here today.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:03:19):

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

 

Mel Robbins (00:03:21):

Well, congratulations on your bestselling new book Talk, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. And I cannot wait to have you teach us exactly what to do so that we can get ahead in our careers, we can land our dream jobs, we can get paid what we deserve, and we can manage the stress and anxiety that comes from all things about making money and truly negotiating better. And so I just want to start by having you tell the person who's listening about your background, the classes that you teach at Harvard Business School and why they recruited you, they recruited you to come to Harvard Business School to teach negotiation.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:04:03):

Yeah, I'm a behavioral scientist. I got my PhD at Wharton at the business school in Philadelphia where I studied emotions and how people feel, how they talk about their feelings, and specifically in the context of negotiations, how do we feel when we're negotiating how we feel before we negotiate? And I was hired at the Harvard Business School to teach this course on negotiation, and it's an incredible course. It's so valuable. We all need to learn how to negotiate more effectively. I taught that for about four years, and then I started to get a little itchy. I was like, I think the business school might need something else in addition to this negotiation course. And so I created a course called Talk that focuses very broadly on how to become a better conversationalist in all areas of your life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:04:53):

And let me just say, it's not just any course. This course has a wait list. I mean, students are trying to negotiate their way into this course and before we jump into some of the research and the specific things that you're going to tell us to do in order to get promoted, in order to negotiate a higher salary, in order to find and land our dream jobs and to also combat the nerves that come from negotiating and having difficult conversations at work or in our life. Can you just talk a little bit about some of the biggest takeaways that the person listening might find very surprising from the Harvard negotiation

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:05:33):

Course? Yeah, I think when we think of people who, when you imagine a good negotiator, I think this really tough, rigid, persuasive person comes to mind when we actually study people negotiating and practice in the real world, often the best negotiators are people who are just great communicators, people who have and are good at developing meaningful, who figure out what other people need and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need. It's not about getting in there and saying, give me more money or give me more power. It's literally giving people actually adding value and bringing what people need to them.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:17):

I want to make sure I heard you correctly because if I think about negotiating, whether it's for a higher salary or it's just trying to get the better deal at a car dealership or it is winning any kind of argument, I would think that you need to be firm and blustery and know your value and kind of have the right things to say. But if I'm hearing you correctly, you just said that the best negotiators based on the research are people that understand the needs of the person they're trying to get something from.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:06:55):

Of course, yes. No negotiation. Very few negotiations are about just one issue. It's not like you're going to be doing this tug of war, push and pull on the price of a car. There are other issues that matter, for example, starting with nobody wants to talk to somebody who's blustery and decisive and harsh,

 

Mel Robbins (00:07:15):

True.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:07:16):

No one goes into an interaction wanting it to be miserable and confrontational. And so even that itself is a thing that you can deliver to them to make it more pleasant, more enjoyable. That is value that you can bring to them that's going to make them more likely to make a concession on price.

 

Mel Robbins (00:07:33):

So I want to take all of the research and the biggest takeaways from the incredibly popular classes that you teach at Harvard, and I want to apply them to getting ahead in your career, getting a job that is your dream job and actually landing it, networking effectively, managing nerves when you have to have tough conversations. And I want to go through this one by one. 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:08:09):

It's so funny when we think about people who get promoted, we think of these powerful people who are sort of masters of the universe or maybe tycoons or whatever in practice. The people who thrive at work, who do well, who perform well, are good at conversation, they're doing a good job talking to their coworkers, they're doing a good job talking to their investors, to their clients, to their customers, to their boss. They're people that everyone likes working with because they're enjoyable to be around and they're bringing value. They're working hard and bringing value to the people around them.

 

Mel Robbins (00:08:43):

That makes sense because I remember seeing somewhere this research about the single biggest factor that determines whether or not a woman in particular gets promoted or somebody that is a minority gets promoted. And it's whether or not their contributions are known. And if you really stop and think, if you're somebody who is quiet and you're hoping people know what you're doing and you're not a good communicator because it's not a skill that you've practiced or because your nerves get the best of you, then you're leaving it to hope and chance that you're going to get recognized because your contributions being known is largely determined by whether or not you can communicate effectively.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:09:35):

Sometimes your contributions are observable without talking. Sometimes other people will notice and will say something and sort of promote about you, talk good about you, something that they've observed. But very often if you think about a high performer at work and you track back, well, how did they become known as a high performer? You track the chain of information back. And very often it comes back to a point where it's like, well, actually, he told me himself that he just won this award or that he just figured out this new problem or he figured out this new thing. So very often it comes back around to this idea of if something great is happening and no one's noticing, it's up to you to share it with someone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:16):

I just had this happen because we've found out that we are the number one ranked podcast in the world on go on Apple podcasts. I mean, I never in a million years imagined a world where I would see the Mel Robbins podcast ahead of Joe Rogan. And it's funny because even somebody that listens to this show twice a week every week wouldn't know that because you're not paying attention to the charts. That's right. It's not until I actually say that this is something that has happened, that you're aware of this thing that has happened.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:10:53):

And what's so amazing is,

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:54):

And I almost don't want to say it because I feel like, okay, I'm bragging and then you're not going to like me, and then you're going to think I'm let them not going to follow my own advice. But what were you going to say, professor?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:11:05):

I was going to say, now that you've said it, anyone who hears this episode can then go and they can share that information. I can leave our conversation here and I'm going to say, guess whose podcast I got to go on? And it's so amazing because guess who's the number one podcast right now? It's Miles's podcast. I wouldn't have known that except if you told me even someone who's coming to visit. So there are so many examples of this where it wouldn't be known unless you shared it. I think a great rule of thumb

 

Mel Robbins (00:11:33):

Is to assume that nobody at work actually knows what you're working on unless you are very good at communicating and you're making it known. I have a question because at Harvard Business School, y'all do a lot of research on what makes for effective CEOs and what makes for influential leaders at work. And this applies to all of us, this research. It's not just somebody in a company. This is about whether or not you do a good job leading a group of volunteers to do something, whether or not you're a good leader in the leader league kind of system that everybody and all your friends are coaching in. Leadership is a function of your ability to influence other people. So when you look at the research that is done at Harvard Business School, what is the most overlooked skill of great leaders?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:12:27):

Yeah, I think this is part of why my course has been such a hit and why it's hit such a nerve when even when our students are in business school, they focus on hard skills like, oh, I'm going to learn as much as I can about finance. I'm going to learn as much as I can about accounting. I'm going to learn as much as I can about private equity. But when you revisit with actual leaders out in the world, whether it's at a fancy company and they're a CEO or the manager of the night shift of the serving staff at a restaurant, every time everything they have in common, they say, I've been successful because I'm good at interacting with the people around me. I'm good at connecting with people. I'm good at figuring out what people need and helping them get it conversation is this incredible superpower that not enough of us are taking advantage of.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:18):

Well, it's true because if I think about wanting to be successful, whether it's launching a business or having a side hustle or just continuing to get promoted and feel like I'm growing at work or to land my dream job and network effectively, I'm thinking more about these things I'm supposed to do, but I'm not thinking a lot about the importance of mastering the skill of communication along the way.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:13:44):

And it is a skill. And nowadays because of this new science of conversation, it's a more quantifiable skill than ever before. And we've learned so much about how to build this skill.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:55):

And Professor Brooks, you've already said something twice now that I want to highlight that. I want to make sure that the person listening caught this because I know this is one of these conversations that is going to get shared, particularly probably with parents and grandparents down to nephews and nieces and sons and daughters around looking for jobs and actually being successful and influential in your career.

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:15:03):

Yeah. I think it's easy to think about that. Someone walks in and they're confident and they say, I deserve a raise because of X, Y, and Z. And you lay out the data and you say, because I'm great and you owe this to me before you actually figure out what's in their mind, what do you value in an employee? Am I doing a good job? How can I add more value? What could make this organization better? How could I be more pleasant to be around? How could I be more helpful to my colleagues? And this is not the mindset that people usually go in with. They go in with this, I'm strong and I'm going to convince you that I'm right and deserving. There are questions like, how many other people do you have available to you that you could replace me with? That's an important question. If your boss has a queue of 200 other resumes sitting on their desk, you're probably not in a very powerful position to walk in and say, Hey, give me a raise. But if you are bringing a lot of value and you're hard to replace, then maybe you are in a better position to talk about that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:05):

So I just want to make sure I got this straight. I feel a little bad because I was out to dinner last night, believe it or not. I mean, I love how the universe works, and the person that was waiting on our table came up and it turns out that there're huge of this podcast and it was really cool. And I said, oh, well, what topic would you want me to cover? And I kid you not. She said, I'm the manager at this restaurant and next week I'm going in and I'm asking for a raise. And I think I gave her the wrong advice. What'd you tell her? Well, the first thing I said to her is I said, the one thing I don't want you to do is do not look at Glassdoor and do not find every other salary range in your area, and then assume that your boss should pay you that because that doesn't feel like you telling me that your irreplaceable. That feels like an ultimatum. And when somebody does that to me, it makes me go, okay, well if you'd like to get paid that at a different restaurant, go get that job.

 

(00:17:09):

And I then said to her, what I would do is I would look back through your calendar and your photographs and jog your memory and try to come up with a list of all of the problems you solve, all of the things that you do that your boss does not realize that you do, come up with the number of different jobs that you do, and then also come up with the reasoning behind why you want to grow in this role and why that's important to you. But I didn't say, I want you to first stop and put yourself in your boss's shoes. What does your boss need in an incredible manager? What makes you irreplaceable? And I think that's something that nobody is talking about

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:17:57):

And or take the, you've now instructed her to make this log of things that she's done. She could bring the log to her boss and say, which of these things is most valuable to you? What do you think is, what am I doing here that you love so that I can do more of that? Which of these do you think I should do less of? How can I grow in this role? What should I be doing differently, better? Great. Which of these are most valuable to you that make you want to hold onto me?

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:24):

So you would have that conversation before you actually have the one where you're truly asking for the promotion or the raise.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:18:30):

And this is true of any conversation where you're trying to be, the mindset of trying to be persuasive is a very dangerous mindset.

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:39):

What do you mean?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:18:40):

There are so many conversations where we go in and we often at work and we want to persuade someone to agree with us. I want to persuade my boss that I am deserving of a race.

 

(00:18:51):

But the way to do that, ultimately the way to be persuasive is to go in with a learning mindset. When you go in and you try and learn as much as you can about what's valuable to them, what's valuable to the organization, what do they love about what you're doing, what do they hate about what you're doing? Learn. Learn. Ultimately that conversation's going to feel like the two of you are solving a problem together rather than arguing and pushing and pulling and you trying to persuade them to agree with you. And ultimately, you will ironically end up being more persuasive.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:23):

Who knew that the Harvard Business School professor who teaches the course in the science of communication and negotiation would give us unbelievably amazing advice. No, I'm not kidding, because it's kind of one of those steps that's so obvious that you miss it.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:19:39):

Yeah,

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:40):

Because the truth is, anybody that works for me, that makes my job easier. You're invaluable. Anybody that solves problems before they become a problem for me, you're invaluable.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:19:50):

You

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:50):

Get in early, you stay late, you're invaluable.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:19:53):

And it's not a trick. And it's not like you're going into this conversation and you're going to try and trick them. It's so authentic and rooted in reality. You need to figure out what's valuable to them and then deliver it, and then you become invaluable to them. Of

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:08):

Course.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:20:09):

And that's how relationships work. That's how work works.

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:12):

I think most of us do the opposite. I've certainly been guilty when I have been an employee and I make a lousy employee because I watch what's happening in the company and then I go, oh, they're successful, therefore I deserve more, therefore I am owed more. And then I start to feel entitled, and then I rehearse my little script, and then I go in with my hands on my hips and my case that I'm going to make, and then it's denied. And that step of going, have I even sat with my boss and asked, what would make your life easier? What would make me irreplaceable? What are you looking for me to do that I'm not doing?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:20:50):

Totally.

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:51):

What are the things that I do that you actually value? What is a total waste of time?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:20:54):

Or if you're actually feeling the social comparison thing of this high performer, you could go in and say, what are they doing that's awesome that I could do more of?

 

(00:21:03):

Make it practical. We all do social comparison, but it's often useless, a sort of waste of your emotional energy, turn that waste into something productive, which is so much of what we observe in other people is this sort of myth of naturalness or they're not doing that much more than me. They're not doing anything special or that just comes naturally to them. When you dig under the hood and you actually ask people, what do they do that's good? How do they make people around them feel? What work are they getting done? You realize, oh, I'm not doing that, but I could try. So there's a lot more to learn there.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:40):

Anything, professor Brooks, that right there is worth a million dollars. And let me tell you why. Because typically when you see somebody who is performing at work or they are excelling at work or they're hitting their numbers or whatever, you tend to see that example. And then you either invalidate yourself or you go, I'm only playing favorites. And here, and what you're saying is, no, no, no, no, no. There are skills. There are habits, there are patterns of behavior that this person engages in. How about you operate for a couple weeks and you just mirror what that person is doing because that person is demonstrating the behavior and the communication style and the work style that actually wins in this organization.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:22:26):

Yeah, it's undeniable proof that they're doing something right. Even if it feels like those behaviors are sort of detestable, if you track back and you say, but yeah, he was the one who said that he was great at this, and now you're all just listening to him. Well, he nailed it. They're listening to him, he's succeeding. Maybe you have something to learn from that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:43):

Wow, I could see how this also plays out in personal situations. And I'm going to just take a small tangent because I want to just put my arm around the person to make you understand that what we're actually talking about, his influence,

 

(00:22:58):

Your ability to influence other people's behavior to your benefit. And so an example that comes to mind immediately that I realized I completely screwed up is the negotiating with my husband for how we're going to spend our holidays, his family, my family. And I think we all can think of situations where we get highly charged and then we march in and demand what we want instead of stopping to think, okay, well what does my partner care about? What does this roommate care about? And doing that homework, professor Brooks, to force yourself out of your point of view and go, well, what might that person care about? And how can I start the negotiation really being interested in what that person cares about instead of jamming my opinion like a poop sandwich down their throat for them to choke down. I can see the mistakes that I've made over and over and over again. And from your point of view, professor Brooks, what are the mistakes that people make when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:24:11):

They go in and do what you're saying, which is they go in sort of righteous and resolute thinking, this is what an influential person looks like. This is what they sound like. They're decisive, they're convincing, they're compelling and strong, aren't they? But when you talk about dialogue, when you talk about, oh, there's a human being on the receiving end of this, and you realize that every encounter, whether it's a salary negotiation or a first date or whatever, that's another human mind sitting on the other end and they need to receive what you're saying. So going in with your hands on your hips and making your argument, this is not a public speech. This is a co-created dialogue with another person who has needs and wants and desires and opinions and beliefs that differ from yours. And you need to figure out what they are in order to be the best position to actually deliver what they need.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:01):

How does knowing what somebody else needs help me get what I want?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:25:05):

Oh my goodness. It's the most direct pathway. And the thing is, Mel, we're not good at guessing what other people need. Even with people, well, like your husband, well

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:15):

Then how the hell am I going to know what my boss needs?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:25:17):

You got to ask questions, endlessly ask questions. You can ask them, what do you need? What are you excited about? What is this other employee doing that's so great? How can I do better? What am I doing on my list of tasks that I'm totally nailing? What could I do better? You need to be a sort of glutton for learning, a glutton for feedback, and then it will actually make you invaluable to them and put you in that powerful position to say, look, I know I'm invaluable to you. You've told me and now I think I deserve more.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:45):

Well, you've also just signaled that you're now wanting to succeed and that you're not going to waste time guessing that you're willing to align and be flexible to cause more value for us.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:25:59):

You yourself want to succeed, and at the same time you're signaling, I want us to succeed. I want this organization, I want this restaurant. I want this investment bank. I want whatever this school, I want us as a group to succeed. Let's figure out how I can help us do that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:26:15):

So I think most of us probably wait until our annual or midyear review to do this, but when is the best time?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:26:23):

I really love more casual feedback. So it's so stressful to go into a 360 review or your annual feedback meeting and everybody's nervous and it feels very high stakes. You have the opportunity to ask questions anytime. That's true. Anytime you see somebody, Hey, I tried this thing. Let me show you a video. Let me show you. What do you think about this? Was this a good idea that I did this? What could I have done better? You were in that presentation I gave the other day. What did you think of my slides? What could I have done better? Should I have not even used slides? The opportunity to ask for lower stakes, more casual feedback is always there, but it requires that you ask those questions

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:01):

Well, and the more you do that, the more you're in a dialogue where it's pretty clear you're a valuable contributor.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:27:10):

Exactly. And they're more invested. It's causing people around you to actually think about you, right? It's saying like, Hey, I care about your opinion and now we have a meaningful enough relationship where I feel comfortable asking you That's so valuable. You're enmeshed in this sort of social net. Organizations are just a group of people who care about what they're working on.

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:29):

So let's say you're a shift worker.

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:28:02):

Get the good shift? Totally. I spent many years of my life waitressing too. I know this feeling. So I think there's a couple answers. The first question is, who are you talking to? Who are you targeting?

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:13):

Because

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:28:14):

You could talk to your fellow servers first and say, are you also unhappy with your shifts? Are there any opportunities for us to trade that would be win-win, right? So we call that trading on differences. People have different preferences. There might be win-wins in there to trade with the fellow servers. You could then, if that's not an option, you can go and talk to your boss and say, when you're making this schedule, what are you thinking about? Is there something about this shift that you think I'm uniquely positioned to do? Am I doing a good job here? What value am I bringing or what this, I would really love to be on this earlier shift, but I see that this other servers there. Do you think they're uniquely positioned to be there? What are they doing that's great?

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:54):

Or what could I do to put myself in a position to be considered to earn that thought? Yes. What can I do to earn it? What I love about this is that oftentimes, and I'll speak as an employer and as a parent, because kids are sort of like an employer negotiating, oftentimes it feels a little bit like me against you. And what I love about this strategy, professor Brooks, is that all of a sudden you in a very sneaky way, you made me with you. And so there was nothing adversarial. There was nothing confrontational. It's not like you're making me wrong. I didn't put you on the great Saturday night shift. You're basically saying, what do I need to do to put myself in a position to be considered, which then allows me to be with you versus against you?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:29:44):

Their job is hard. The job that they're doing to decide who's doing what. Shift is a complicated puzzle to solve. And so you're saying, I see that this is a complicated puzzle. How can I help you solve this puzzle and how can I become a more valued part of the puzzle? This is a really great mindset shift. Whenever you confront even a tiny disagreement, instead of thinking of it as confrontational, instead setting it aside and saying like, I'm with you. I care about you. I see what you're doing is hard. Let's try and solve this together. That's a really important mindset shift, and it's almost always true, whether it's with your spouse or your kid or your boss. These are people you really care about and admire. You don't need to be getting in a fight with them about really anything.

 

Mel Robbins (00:30:29):

I feel like my husband has taken your negotiation and your science of communication course because he constantly, when I start to get agitated about something, he'll be like, Mel, I'm not against you. We need to work on this thing together, which gets me out of that adversarial thing. And I think we do feel that way, particularly at work, because money livelihood, a sense of feeling good about yourself and that you're progressing, that you start to get really nervous about it.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:31:01):

Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel, and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them, just reminding them relentlessly, Hey, I'm with you. I got your back. I see it makes sense that you feel upset about where you are in the schedule. Let's talk about how it could get better in the future. We're in this together. I'm affirming you, and also I can't move you right now.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:26):

Well, I think that's important because a lot of us have adversarial relationships with our boss or with our business partners, and we think they're against us.

 

(00:31:35):

And it's a huge shift. And again, I'm going to remind you as you're listening, she's not making this up. I mean, this is what they're teaching at Harvard Business School in the renowned course on negotiation. And this is what you are summarizing in your bestselling book talk, which is based on you teaching one of the most popular classes at Harvard Business School. Learning how to communicate and negotiate effectively is a important skill that helps you have more influence, make more money, be more effective with your family, with everybody. So let's say that you take this important advice and you actually have been peppering with small conversations and you've been putting yourself in the person's shoes that you're now trying to get something from. Is there a certain time when to have the conversation if you've been having all the little conversations all along to try to understand their position?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:32:35):

If you've had these conversations and you feel like you really understand how you're adding value, you've really put in the effort to become this sort of invaluable, irreplaceable contributor, and you really have assessed and been honest with yourself, do I deserve more? And you get to this place where you're like, yes, I think I do. After all of that, which is important. That's an important first step. Then you get to this point where you need to work up the courage to say, is there a world where you could even afford? Could you give me a raise? Can the organization afford it? Can you afford it? Do you agree with me? Because I'm feeling like I really need it and it would really help me.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:16):

Well, hold on a second. That sounds weak. I'm just going to come right out and be like, it sounds weak to say, could you afford it and I need it. You know what I'm saying? That's actually the language you should

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:33:25):

Use. Depends. It depends on where you're going. I mean,

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:29):

If it's a waitressing job, that's one thing, but if you're working in a company and you got healthcare and you got a 401k,

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:33:36):

Yeah, really, I think so. I think in our minds, we have this image of what strength looks and sounds like, but in the experience of a conversation, strength actually looks quite different. It's people who go in open-minded with good data, good reasons, good reflection. And you can say, Hey, we've had a lot of conversations about this. I know you think I'm doing a really great job, that I'm invaluable to you because of these things that we've talked about before. We've gotten to a point now where I'm really hoping that you could reward me for it. But your money where your

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:06):

Mouth is asshole. No, that's

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:34:07):

Not what you're saying. Yeah. I think we have this idea of what strength looks like that in the practice of human to human connection and conversation is not actually how it plays out.

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:17):

Well, what's also interesting is if you work for a larger company, the fact of the matter is a lot of this is tied to your title and to your tenure, and it's also going to require the person you report to then have to go advocate on your behalf. And it's not always as personal as you'd like to think, but if you're in a smaller organization, the presumption that the company's doing well, therefore you deserve to do a lot better than you currently are, is kind of an arrogant presumption. You haven't seen the p and l. So actually asking, could you even be in a position to do this because you agree that I'm killing it here. What

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:34:54):

Can we do?

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:55):

It's

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:34:56):

Very, the questions of are you the right? It's kind of tricky,

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:58):

Actually.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:34:59):

Are you the right person to do? You have the power to even say yes to me. Figuring out who to talk to is a really hard question. They would love to give you a raise, but they don't have the power to do it. Or they would love to give you a raise, but they can't afford to do it. These are all things you need to figure out. It's not weak to ask. It's smart to really be thinking, are they in a position where they can give me what I want, or are their hands tied?

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:24):

Well, and I suppose if they're not in a position, you can also say, well, look, I'm looking to make 10, $20,000 more. What do I need to do here to actually have that

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:35:33):

Happen? And they might say, you need to bring in more clients so that I can afford to give it to you. And that's good to learn. And then you can go out and do it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:41):

Yes. This is so helpful.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:35:44):

Can I tell you to say one more thing, Mel?

Mel Robbins (00:36:43):

Could I do a four day work week?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:36:45):

Could I do a four day work week? Can we get an espresso machine in the office? I have a friend who's really well qualified for this open role that we have. Could we think about hiring them? That would make me so happy to work with them, think creatively, think outside of just one issue.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:01):

That's so true because we do get fixated. And not to say that the money isn't important and not to say you don't deserve to be compensated for the contributions and the effort that you're making. And I do think the other thing too is that a lot of times, at least speaking for myself, is I would show up in a role and do the job that was asked of me, and then I expect because I'm doing the job that's asked of me, that by the way, they could hire a hundred other people to do the job that is asked of me, but am I contributing more so that I am more valuable? And these are not the conversations that I ever had with myself because I was so busy going, well, my friends in investment banking are making all this money and I want this and I want that. And look at these influencers online. And my company looks like they're doing well and my boss drives a nice car, so therefore I should. And you get up in that mindset, dangerous. Very.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:38:03):

Yeah. And there's a saying of dress for the job that you want, but it's more than dress. You need to behave like the job that you want. So if they hired you to do a very simple job, if you start doing things that are actually above and beyond and more valuable, truly valuable to the organization, you're already doing the next level job. And you can go in and point that out to them and they might say, yeah, you're right. We need to reward you for, we need to pay you. You're doing that job.

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:39:00):

I think two things. One, keeping notes. If you feel like you've done something valuable, make note of it. In academia, we have these very long cvs that where we track everything, every little move we make, every conference we attend, every tiny poster that you present, every paper that you publish, it seems a little bit ridiculous, but in retrospect, when you look back, you say, no. That was just keeping notes on all the little things that I did that felt like it added value to the field, added value to my organization, to my co-authors, all of it. And so you can see why that's valuable. It's sort of undisputable evidence of all of the value that you added

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:36):

Somewhere. It's sort of like if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like, oh my God, I forgot that I went on that trip in July. Saw my friend. Everyone

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:39:43):

Forgets. How can you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember?

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:49):

Yep.

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:39:49):

So keeping notes in some way. Some document where you're keeping track of what you've done is sort of part one. And part two is talk to people about it. Tell people when you've done something that you feel proud of or you feel like could be valuable, don't keep it a secret. No one's going to know about it. Yes, maybe it brings you a sense of pride, but in terms of work, it's really valuable to share it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:11):

I have two other things that I would love to share as ideas, because I remember when my daughter started at this massive cybersecurity firm, and they didn't do any just one-on-one training on what makes for a good week? What do you do on a Monday? What do you do on a Friday? And so the first piece of advice was exactly what you're saying. Every single week on a Friday, take out your notes app or take out a running document and write down the things that you worked on. And the second thing, which I think is a great idea, is at the end of the week, send a short email to your boss and just say, these are all the things that I got done this week. These are the things that I'm still working on next week. Is there anything that's a higher strategic priority that you want me to focus on next week? And what happens when you do that is now in one email, you've communicated everything you've done and you've recalibrated to see if there's something strategic that is on your boss's mind that you now need to prioritize.

 

(00:41:15):

And the third thing, and I heard this from somebody else, I can't remember who said this. It was at a big kind of conference that I was speaking at, and I thought it was brilliant. If you solve a problem, and it could be anything, you could be working in a big box retailer and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work. And so you use something else. If you solve a problem, send an email wide about what happened and how you solved it, because then you become a person that has wider visibility of being somebody that's very proactive and it matters. And even if they don't promote you at your work, guess what? You now have a record of all this stuff for when you're interviewing, which brings me to my big pivot. Let's talk about looking for a job, professor Brooks, because right now you're at Harvard Business School and you got a lot of HBS students who are in the job market, and this is a conversation that's coming out where the news feels scary and AI is taking over jobs, and people who are very qualified are having a hard time finding a job, and people that are just entering the job market or getting back into it are feeling very overwhelmed. As a Harvard Business School professor, what do you see as some of the big mistakes that people make when they either start looking for a job or interviewing? For one?

 

Dr. Alison Wood Brooks (00:42:40):

Yeah. If you're having a hard time finding a job, you are not alone. This is a big problem right now. It's a big challenge. Even our students at HBS are struggling with this too. So you're not alone. Some of the biggest mistakes that I see people make on the job market is very similar to what we were talking about with promotions is thinking is focusing on how can I be the most interesting, qualified, exciting candidate? Rather than thinking, what does this organization need? What do they need? And how can I fill that need? So it's much more co-created than how can I be my best self?

 

(00:43:19):

Because just being your best self may not be at all what they're looking for. And almost any job that you find yourself in is going to require some flexibility for you to adapt to what they need from you. And so trying to figure that out a priori or before you do a job interview before you interact with them is so very valuable.