How to Talk to Difficult People: Proven Strategies to Stop Arguments & Feel Connected Again

Mel Robbins (00:00:05):

Okay? What's kitchen sinking?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:00:06):

Kitchen sinking is when we start fighting about one thing and suddenly we're fighting about everything. We can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation. And what they said is

 

Mel Robbins (00:00:14):

You're in a standoff. One word turns into a lecture, one, look. Next thing you know you're arguing and now you're stuck. How do you talk to your family when you don't agree? When it's not just a difference of opinion, it's a crack in your relationship. Well, that's why I have brought in a world class heavyweight when it comes to this issue. I'm talking about none other than Charles DeWit. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning three times New York Times bestselling author, world renowned researcher on the topic of how to connect and communicate with people. His work and research changed my life. I have cited his research in two of my bestselling books. I've shared his research on stages around the world. Charles' most recent book, super communicators, cracked something open to me, and it's going to do the same for you. Charles is going to teach you how to finally feel understood in your family, in your marriage, in your friendships, at work, in your life.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:01:11):

There's things that we don't want to talk about with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers, and the thing that we now know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone really, the best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person,

 

Mel Robbins (00:01:28):

10 to 20 times?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:01:29):

10 to 20 times, but they're asking a specific kind of question. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating makes you fall in love. Anyone can connect with anyone else. The key is,

Charles Duhigg (00:02:03):

Thank you for having me. This is such a treat. I have to say I'm a huge fan of the show. I'm a huge fan of you and so a chance for us to get to sit down and talk to each other is just such an honor and a joy. Thank you.

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:12):

Oh, well, I hope you feel the same after the conversation's over. I'm really excited about the conversation today because you are the person that I think could help us understand a topic that we're seeing in the inbox over and over and over again, which is this idea of feeling like you want to be closer to people that you have fundamental disagreements with and friction. And so I'd love to have you start by telling the person who is listening, what could change about their life or their relationships. If they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us, and they put it to use in their life, they put it to use with people that they want to be closer to. What could change Charles?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:02:59):

Well, I think a lot of us have anxiety around our relationships. We have anxiety around conversations. There's things that we don't want to talk about with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers. And the thing that we now know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone by the end of this episode. My goal is that people will say, I'm not going to be anxious about having that conversation anymore. I know that I can talk to my uncle, I can talk to my husband about that thing that I've been avoiding. I can talk to the guy at work who I disagree with, and we're actually fighting with each other over what the budget should be. I know how to have that conversation in a way that even if we disagree with each other, that we still feel connected to each other. That conversation becomes a joy for me rather than a source of anxiety. That's a high bar. It is a hard bar, Charles, but I think we can hit it. I believe in us.

 

Mel Robbins (00:03:46):

Okay. I'm going to lean in because, and I am going to actually give you, as you're listening an invitation, I want you to think about one or two people in your life that you need to have a conversation or there's some issue where you're just like, I don't even know who you are anymore. I can't talk to you about this kind of thing. I want you to have them in mind. I can think of two people in my life right now that I'm going to start the conversation with. One of them is related to what I do in my career, and there's a topic that I don't know how to bring up. And the other one is related to topics inside my family related to politics that it's just gotten to the point where we can't even talk to each other, and I don't want it to be that way.

 

(00:04:29):

And I should say right off the bat, this is not going to be a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to talk to people where you have issues that you're just at this point where you're like, well, you just have to agree to disagree. And so I want you to think of one or two people in your life that, boy, if I could actually be able to have a conversation with somebody and not have it tear us apart, or if I could have the ability to bring something up that I don't really know how to talk about, that's a really cool thing. And I got to ask you though, why should we learn how to have conversations when they only seem to create more emotion or frustration or distance or heartache with the people that you care about, especially when you disagree on the issue?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:05:20):

Because those conversations are oftentimes the most powerful conversations of our life. If I think about why my wife and I fell in love, it was not because we went on a great vacation together. It was not because we saw a fun movie together. It's because we had conversations where I said something real and meaningful and vulnerable, and she said something that was vulnerable and real, and it changed how I saw the world. That is what brings us together. So I'm not saying that you have to have a conversation with your family about politics, right? Part of being a good conversationalist is choosing what you want to talk about. And when I get together with my neighbor, he's got a different political sign on his lawn than I have on my lawn. But politics takes up like 2% of our brains. What we mostly think about is the pothole in the street that we want fixed. So that's what I'm going to talk about is the pothole. But with those people that you care about, with your parents, with your children, the most important conversations weren't necessarily the easiest conversations, but they're the ones that you remember because they brought you closer together. They helped you understand how this person saw the world and you helped them understand how you see the world. That is the greatest expression of what being a human is.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:39):

But I take it based on the research in this book, you're going to teach us how to do that even when we diabolically disagree.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:06:48):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:48):

With the political sign that is in the neighbor or the parents or the brother-in-law's yard.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:06:53):

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean you have to avoid politics. In fact, you can have a conversation about politics and if you have the right skills to do so, even if you walk away still disagreeing with each other, you will feel closer to each other. You'll feel more connected. You'll feel like the conversation was a success. This is the thing about conversations. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating makes you fall in love. Conversations are incredibly powerful, but the way that we have them so that they are powerful is that we use skills. Skills that we know, skills that we use with our best friends. We use those skills on everyone. We become a super communicator.

Charles Duhigg (00:08:12):

So it's a good question for me. This actually started a couple of years before I began working on the book with this pattern that I fell into with my wife, which I assume is probably familiar to you, probably to many people listening, which is, I would come home from work and I was working at the New York Times at that point, and I would start complaining about my day and talking about my boss doesn't appreciate me, and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am. And my wife very reasonably would offer me some really good solutions. She would say something like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other? And instead of being able to hear the good advice she was giving me, I would get even more upset and I would say, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side. You should be outraged on my behalf. And she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. Does this ever happen to you and your husband? That one person wants to discuss an emotional problem, the other person offers solutions to it that are not necessarily appreciated.

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:07):

It not only happens with my husband because I'm your wife. I miss, well, lemme solve the problem. But it happens all the time with my adult kids where they're sharing about something and I will either see the other person's side

 

Charles Duhigg (00:09:22):

Absolutely,

 

Mel Robbins (00:09:22):

Which just pisses them off so much. You're not hearing me. Can you just validate me? Which is a helpful cue. But yeah, I think M, the chief offender in my relationships of not actually listening the right way,

 

Charles Duhigg (00:09:38):

You're right, it's about listening, but it's also about understanding what's actually happening in that conversation.

 

(00:09:44):

So after I had this issue with my wife, I went to all these researchers and I asked them, why do I keep making this mistake again and again and again? And they said, well, we're really glad you showed up because we're actually living through this golden age of understanding communication for the first time in human history because of advances in neuroscience and neural imaging and data collection. We can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation. And what they said is, when you are having a discussion with your kids, or I'm having a discussion with my wife, we think we know what that conversation is about. We think we're having a discussion about what happened today or how things are at work, but actually we are having multiple different kinds of conversations all at the same time. And in general, these different kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets.

 

Mel Robbins (00:10:27):

So there's three different types of conversations.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:10:28):

There's three different types of conversations. There's practical conversations where we're making plans together or we're solving problems. But then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. I want you to validate me. I want you to tell me that it's going to be okay. The same way that when your kids say to you, mom, I don't want you to solve this problem for me. I just want you to tell me that it's going to turn out all right. That's an emotional conversation. And then finally, the third type of conversation are social conversations. What are those? That's about how we relate to each other, how we relate to society, the identities that are important to us. I identify as a mom or a dad or a worker. And what's really fascinating is all three kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate.

 

(00:11:12):

And in a discussion, we'll probably have all three conversations. But what's important is if you and I are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we can't really hear each other not completely, and we certainly won't feel connected to each other, which is exactly what happened with me and my wife, or you and your kids. I came home, I was having an emotional conversation. Your kids are having an emotional conversation. My wife responds with a practical conversation. She says, here's a solution. But because we're having different kinds of conversations, I can't hear the good advice she's giving me. All I do is I get more upset. And so one of the big skills that super communicators have, the best communicators is they're aware of these different kinds of conversations, and they're asking themselves, what kind of conversation does this person want to have with me right now? And how do I invite them to have the kind of conversation that's important to me?

 

Mel Robbins (00:12:03):

So one of the first takeaways is because I think we can all relate to that feeling of being misunderstood, and that feeling of not being listened to or that feeling of being talked at is that if you're in that frustrating dynamic with somebody where you come home, you just want to vent, you just want somebody to connect with you emotionally validate how you're feeling, because letting off steam that when you have a mismatch because your wife's like, oh, well, I don't want you to be sad. Let me problem solve. And then you start to get frustrated, and now you're actually causing tension with the two of you.

 

(00:12:37):

And both of you're like, well, we're just trying to have a conversation. One of the first skills that you're teaching us is in those moments, ask yourself, what am I actually trying to do here? Absolutely. Am I trying to connect emotionally? Am I trying to handle logistics? And I don't want to have some deep conversation? Another thing that happens is somebody will be handling deep. They want to just figure out the mechanics for the week, and I want to have a conversation about feelings. And they're like, I don't want to talk about my feelings. Why do you always have to talk? That's so helpful.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:13:10):

And you're absolutely right. So the first skill, the big takeaway is try and figure out what kind of conversation you want to have. Am I in an emotional mindset? Am I in a practical mindset? Am I in a social mindset? And next, let me ask you or pay attention to what kind of conversation you want to have.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:27):

Well, I don't care about you though, Charles. That's part of the problem is I literally don't care about you.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:13:34):

See, you know what I'm saying? True. I don't believe you. I think you do care. Right? That's why we're having the conversation is we care about the other person at least a little bit.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:41):

That's true. I guess when you come home, we can all relate to that feeling. You've had a really stressful day at work or school or a stressful commute home. You walk in the door, you start venting. You just want to sort of unwind, and then now all of a sudden you are in a frustrating dynamic with somebody else. And in that moment, I actually don't care about Chris's my husband's feelings. Now I'm annoyed that I'm not getting what I wanted, which is the emotional release.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:14:13):

And so what you can do at that moment is you can just announce, I don't need you to solve this problem for me. I just need to vent. I just want to tell you or Chris, Chris can ask you. Chris can say, okay, Mel, do you want me to help you solve this problem? Or do you just need to get this off your chest? Yes, that is the best lie in your book. And it's such a relief when someone asks that, right? Because sometimes we haven't asked ourself. Sometimes we haven't taken the second to say like, oh, what do I actually want out of this conversation? And it's really powerful when we give people a chance to do that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:46):

Okay, so can we set the table on something? Sure. Now thinking it makes sense to me, there are logistics, right? It's all business. Let's just figure this stuff out.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:14:54):

Let's figure out we're going on vacation. What are we having for dinner?

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:56):

Yep.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:14:57):

Yep.

 

Mel Robbins (00:14:57):

There's emotional. I just need somebody to validate, I need the hug, I need to vent to somebody. And then there's social, right?

Charles Duhigg (00:15:07):

So social conversations are actually the most frequent conversations we have, and a social conversation is when in a conversation you say, the way that I see this as a mom is I see this a little bit differently than you. What you're doing is you're telling me who you are, how you see yourself, or when we're saying, Hey, Jim was a little weird in that meeting, what do you think is going on with Jim? Why wasn't he enthusiastic about this idea? That's a social conversation.

 

Mel Robbins (00:15:34):

And I'm assuming that most of the hot topics, whether it's politics or it's religion or it's issues that we see in the news or opinions about family members, that those are social conversations. Social social conversations gone way wrongly.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:15:48):

Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about how to have those conversations a little bit better. And let me clarify, for the three kinds of conversations, they all have something different that we're seeking. When you or and I are having a practical conversation, the goal is a solution. When you and I are having an emotional conversation, the goal is empathy. And when you and I are having a social conversation, if we're talking about politics or we're talking about religion or we're talking about society, the goal is simply acknowledgement. I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to agree with me. Hey, I don't need you to say, oh, by the way, I was wrong to vote for this person. I should have voted for your guy. What I need you to say is I need you to say, I hear what you're saying is this person is important to you. And I might disagree a little bit, but I want to just acknowledge that they are important to you and that they play an important role in your life.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:39):

Now, why would you want to do that? I'm asking this because again, as you're listening, this is not a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to communicate with people,

 

Charles Duhigg (00:16:51):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:16:52):

When you have issues that you do not agree on. I think one of the interesting things about your work, Charles, is that when I was doing an even deeper dive into it, the single biggest criticism of all of the research that you're about to teach us about communicating and connecting with people, the single biggest criticism that people have is, how dare you tell me that I have to acknowledge a point of view that I diabolically oppose, I will. I cannot do that. You are placated. You're trying to convince me to agree with somebody. People's inability to even do this step of saying without seeking to understand why somebody believes what they believe, there is no connection. And so I was excited to talk to you because there are people in my life that I value who I have gotten to the point with where I literally like, I just can't talk to you about this.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:17:54):

So let's talk about how to do that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:17:55):

And I'm sure they probably feel the same way about me.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:17:57):

And you're right, we are living in a more polarized time. There is no question

 

Mel Robbins (00:18:00):

What does the research show.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:18:01):

The research shows absolutely that people shy away from conversations, but there's a way around this, and let's take you as an example.

Mel Robbins (00:18:17):

Yeah, we just have different beliefs when it comes to certain issues. And what happens is if in the past when I've tried to engage, there's an emotional reaction, there's a yelling, you don't understand, we're not doing it, you're not here. And then there's such a flooding of emotion, or there is almost like the words are coming at you, everything's an attack. And so a lot of people, you get to the point where you're just like, it's easier to avoid the conversation even though I don't want to because there's this distance between us, because we can't actually talk about these things.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:19:04):

So let me tell you how to get around that.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:06):

Okay.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:19:06):

Because one of the things, and this is the second big skill of the best communicators, is that they ask more questions. In fact, one of the things that we know is that the best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person,

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:20):

10 to 20 times?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:19:21):

10 to 20 times. But they're asking a specific kind of question, what's known within psychology as a deep question.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:26):

Okay, what is a deep question?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:19:27):

A deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. So how does this apply to your conversation with a relative? Let's role play it. Is that okay to role play?

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:36):

Sure.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:19:36):

Okay. So you be the angry relative, right? I'll be the one who's trying to break through a little bit. So let's say you think that martians are better than people from Venus.I think people from Venus are better than Martians, right? Okay.

 

Mel Robbins (00:19:54):

Something ridiculous.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:19:55):

Something ridiculous. So Mel, Mel, tell me, I saw that there was some interesting news on Mars and Venus the other day. What do you think about that?

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:04):

Well, any idiot can see that the people, the martians on Venus are way better than ones on Mars. Charles, I mean, come on. Didn't you see it on the news?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:20:13):

So this is great, right? Because at that moment I could do one of two things. The first is I could see this as an attack on my identity. We're talking about other people, we're talking about society and how people see others. So it's a social conversation, and I could see this as an attack and be like, well, Mel, you're completely wrong. And not only that, but you're dumb because clearly Mars is better than Venus. Lemme give you all the reasons why that's not going to be a productive conversation. A better thing for me to do is to ask you a deep question. I'm just wondering, Mel, it seems like you really care about this topic. What it about Mars and Venus that seems so meaningful to you? I'm just curious.

 

Mel Robbins (00:20:53):

Well, I just feel like Venus is more kind of how I feel about things. I think Venus is the way to go because I mean, you heard how terrible Mars is and how Mars really screwed things up.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:21:08):

So lemme tell you what I'm about to do. So the first skill that I used is I asked you a deep question. I basically asked you why is this important to you? How do you feel about this topic? The next thing I'm going to do is after you've answered that question, I'm going to repeat back what I heard you tell me. This is known as looping for understanding.

 

Mel Robbins (00:21:28):

Okay?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:21:29):

So Mel, what I hear you saying and tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that for you, Venus really represents something admirable and you've seen people go and they've built a new life on that planet and you're someone who cares about self-improvement and you care about people having agency to make the world a better place. And for you, Venus represents this really, really important virtue, and I totally understand that and because that virtue is also really important to me. I see it a little bit in Mars, and I think we're a little bit different on that, but I think we actually agree about what space exploration means. Did I get that right? Am I hearing you correctly?

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:07):

Yeah, except for the part about Mars. Mars has done everything wrong, and I don't see how they actually say the same thing because the things that I listen to about Venus are saying that Mars actually doesn't believe those things.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:22:23):

I appreciate that, and I want to understand how you see the world. I also want to share with you how I see the world. I just think it'll bring us closer together and look, if we walk away from this conversation and we don't agree about Venus and Mars, that's okay. My goal here is not to convince you you're wrong and I'm right. My goal here is to understand how you see the world. You can speak in such a way that you can understand how I see the world and stepping out of the conversation for a minute. The reason why that's so important is because if we understand each other, even if we disagree, even if we walk away and you think that Venus is the best, and I think that Mars is the best, and we think each other are kind of idiots for believing anything differently, as long as we have tried to understand each other, we will feel more connected to each other. And that connection is how we build a relationship. That's how we build a friendship. If you think about your best friends, you don't agree all the time with your best friends, but you still love them because you're connected to them.

Charles Duhigg (00:23:39):

I think we live in a society where right now people are telling that being right is more important than being connected,

 

(00:23:49):

And we are seeing the wages of that sin. We see it in our politics. We see it in our daily life. We see it in the news when we prioritize being right over being good neighbors, we can walk down a really dangerous road. And that doesn't mean that we should give up on the things that we believe in. If I believe in something, I believe I'm right, and I believe you're wrong, I'm going to work hard to help you see the world the same way that I do. Maybe I'll even convince you that I'm right, but that's not my goal. My goal is to understand you and to let you understand me because then we can live alongside each other peacefully. We can build a community and a society together. That's what matters.

 

Mel Robbins (00:24:35):

Well, one of the things that I saw over and over in the inbox is people talking about how the current state of the world is tearing their families apart. In fact, I want to read you a question from a listener, Megan, my democratic kids and nephew believe that my Republican mother and sister and brother-in-law's views are unforgivable. They want me to intervene, forget the politics of it. And I believe that's a difficult thing for people to say right now because everything is at a boiling point.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:25:09):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:10):

And every issue feels like it's the highest stakes, and so it is hard for people to just forget about the politics. It's very convenient thing to say, right? Megan writes, so I believe in family first. How do I navigate this mess?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:25:27):

Okay, so let's talk about the three skills that we just learned, right?

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:30):

Okay.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:25:30):

Number one, try and figure out what kind of conversation is happening. Is this a practical conversation, an emotional conversation, or a social conversation?

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:37):

Well, how do we know the difference? This is one of those conversations that I don't want to get in the middle of this cat fight. I don't want to be the family mediator all the time. I don't want to go to that family barbecue where everybody's simmering and whispering to the people that believe the same thing.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:25:54):

So let's talk about the conversation with our kids first because we're going to bring them together eventually, but first we're going to talk to the kids. Here's what I would ask. You have said that you think that their opinions are unforgivable. So I want to understand if this is something that really affects you emotionally or if this is just you think it's the wrong choice for society and we should move in a different direction. It's kind of a practical question. Let me ask you, and this is the second skill. Let me ask you a deep question. There's lots of things that your grandmother does that you probably don't approve of, but this issue seems to really be on your mind. Tell me why. What does this issue mean to you? Why is this important? Because what you're doing at that moment with your kids is you're saying, I'm asking you a deep question. Tell me why this matters to you. What do you need to get out of this conversation that makes you feel like the world is a better place? The person is going to answer in a way that tells me what frame of mind they're in,

 

(00:26:56):

If they're an emotional frame of mind, a practical frame of mind, a social frame of mind. They teach teachers how to do this by telling them, if a student comes up and wants to talk to you, you should start the conversation by saying, do you want to be helped? Do you want to be hugged or do you want to be heard? So let's say that they were this.

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:12):

Well, what do you do if they say heard? Because I think if somebody's already using language, it's unforgivable. I don't even know who you are anymore. We can't talk about this stuff. How could you possibly believe that? That there is a deep seated desire that the other person actually changes their point of view? Because without changing your point of view, I believe that you and I cannot connect. Do you see what I mean? That's what that word says to me in Megan's question.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:27:47):

So I agree, but let me adjust it a little bit because I don't think that I necessarily need you to change a hundred percent to how I see the world. I think that I need you to acknowledge how I see the world and that it's valid.

 

(00:27:59):

So this brings us to the third skill. So what do we do when we're sitting down and they're saying either things that are offensive to me or they're saying that what they've said is unforgivable and can't get along with them? We've done the first two skills. We've figured out what kind of conversation we're having. We've asked a deep question. Now we prove that we're listening because that thing that you just said, I need you to change your mind is not actually what most people feel. They think that they need the other person to change their mind, but what they actually need the other person to do is to prove to them that they are listening, that they want to understand. There's a technique for this known as looping for understanding, which has three steps. Step one is that you ask a question, preferably a deep question, which we already did. Step two, and we did this before, is that after you answer that question, I repeat back what I heard you say in my own words.

 

Mel Robbins (00:28:50):

What was the first question that you asked? That was the deep question again.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:28:53):

So the deep question was, this seems like it's really bothering you. Why is this so important to you? Why is what your grandmother says about X? Why does it seem to bother you so much? Just tell me what does this mean to you? That's a deep question.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:06):

Got it. Okay.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:29:07):

Your kids are going to tell you Grandma is old and she's stuck in the past and she doesn't understand the new world,

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:16):

Or I'm devastated. She clearly does not accept me for who I am.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:29:20):

Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:21):

You know what I'm saying? It's like I think for a lot of people there's this sense of how could you believe that and still see and love me? How could we possibly be connected? If this is a core thing that I believe and you have an opinion that I personally believe is unforgiveable

 

Charles Duhigg (00:29:40):

Absolutely, maybe we go to different churches. Maybe you don't accept my lifestyle.

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:44):

Yeah.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:29:45):

So I'm going to ask why that's important, and as you're answering that question, I'm going to listen to figure out are you using emotional words or are you using practical words? Are you using social words?

 

Mel Robbins (00:29:55):

I think most people when you get down to it, probably use very like blah, very emotional. We are all very emotional about these things.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:30:04):

Most of the time the thing that's interfering is the emotion. I've gotten two of the skills out of the way, right? I've asked you deep question. I know that you want to have an emotional conversation. You need to have an emotional conversation. Then I'm going to do this looping for understanding where the goal is to prove to you that I'm listening. Mel, what I hear you saying is I hear you saying that it's really hard to spend time with your grandmother because she believes in a different way of the world working. She thinks that marriage should go this way or that faith should go that way, and I hear you saying that that hurts you because she's your grandmother because you want to have a relationship with her, and that when she pushes you away, it makes you feel distant and bad about yourself. Okay, so that's step two of looping for understanding. I've repeated back what I heard you say. Step three is now I ask you if I got it right, Mel, did I hear you correctly? Because at that moment when I ask you if I got it right, what I'm asking you for is permission to acknowledge that I was listening.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:06):

I love that. Did I get that right?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:31:07):

Yeah. Did I get that right? Am I hearing you correctly?

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:09):

God, it must be so hard to do though when you're having to repeat an opinion or belief that you think is diabolically opposed to yours. Did I get that right?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:31:21):

It is hard. The first couple of times. One of the wonderful things about the human brain and how the human brain has evolved is if you think about it, communication is our superpower, right? It's the thing that sets us apart from every species. So our brain has evolved to be really, really good at communication, and as a result, when we practice things, we make them into habits very, very quickly. So the first time that I say, Mel, what I hear you saying is that we should kill all puppies on earth, and that you believe that. I'm like, how could you believe that, Charles? But I hear that it's because you really care about cats. Did I get that correct? Am I hearing you accurately?

 

(00:31:57):

Once I get into that habit, what's going to happen once you believe that I am listening to you, you're going to become more likely to listen to me. Grandma, what I hear you saying is that you don't approve of my lifestyle because you want me to grow up and to be in a stable relationship and to have children and to experience that joy just like you felt, and you're worried that the choices I'm making means I'll never be in a committed, am I hearing you correctly? Did I get that right At that moment? What I'm doing is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening you, and we can't even fight this. This is hardwired into our neurology. When I prove to you that I've been listening to you, you will automatically become more likely to listen me in return. It's called social reciprocity. We can't fight it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:42):

Social reciprocity. And so this is what the science says.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:32:46):

This is what the science says.

 

Mel Robbins (00:32:47):

And what's interesting about really dissecting this, is that what I felt, we'll use the puppy example because it's ridiculous, right? Is that the second you acknowledged that it's because I love cats. The kind of defensive stance that you have when you are opposed to somebody else drops.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:33:13):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:14):

And the other thing that I'm getting from this is that the grand irony of all of this is that as you are starting to ask the deep question, why does this bother you so much that your grandmother believes this? What I started to hear is that why it bothers us is because we don't feel connected to or aligned with the people that we want to be connected and aligned with.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:33:38):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:33:38):

Is that

 

Charles Duhigg (00:33:39):

Absolutely. At the core of that, why does this bother you so much that your brother-in-law keeps saying this? The deepest reason is because I want to be close to my brother-in-law. He's my brother-in-law, right? Or I want to come home for Thanksgiving, and I don't want to have the entire meal be tense, and I don't want to be waiting for the wrong thing to be said. I want to be able to relax

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:00):

Or the rant about whatever. Yes.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:34:03):

And so once I acknowledge that, once you help me by asking me that deep question, once you help me understand what I actually want here is I don't want my brother-in-law to agree with me. I just want us to be able to live peacefully among each other and feel connected. Then suddenly, all of a sudden I can say, you know what? Actually, I don't need him to vote for the same guy that I vote for. I just need him to understand that we have a difference of opinion, and that's okay, and we're going to live our lives in different ways, but I'm not judging him and he's not judging me.

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:35):

Everyone says, if you're not speaking out about this stuff all the time, then somehow you don't care about the issues. And the truth is, if you understand the research, anytime you're shouting your opinion, people aren't listening to you.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:34:52):

In fact, there's a study after study shows. The more evidence that I give you, the more ingrained your opinion becomes.

 

Mel Robbins (00:35:00):

I think this is really important. If you're listening and you think that this is somehow a way to avoid being active in your community or to avoid addressing hard issues, it is so important to understand that the way that we have evolved at this point where we cannot talk about things or we are so reactive or we are so right, and you may be right about your opinion about whatever topic, and you probably are right about your opinion about whatever topic, but if your entire objective is to convince other people that they're wrong, you're actually creating a bigger divide. Absolutely. So ironically, it's not just about staying close and connected to people. If you have any chance in hell of changing somebody's mind about a topic where you are morally opposed, the only chance you have based on the research, is this what you're telling us, charles?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:36:00):

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:36:00):

Is to use these techniques to make the other person feel listened to and understood so that you open up the pathways in their brain to entertain a different point of view.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:36:13):

That's exactly right. So here's the key thing that's happening is that nobody believes anything a hundred percent right? No matter what you are, politics, religion, sports, nobody says the Mets are the greatest team ever. They will always be the greatest team. If you get them in an honest frame of mind. They say, Hey, the Mets are pretty good this year, but two seasons ago they were terrible. And so what we want is we want to get to that softness. We want to get to that moment when I'm willing to say, here's what I believe. But I acknowledge that there are gray areas here. And what I'm asking you is you believe something different. But I want you to acknowledge that there are also gray areas, and in that gray areas, we can start to influence each other. The way that we get to those gray areas is by saying, I want to understand what you're saying. I want to understand how you're seeing the world, and I want to speak in a way that you can understand what I'm saying, because there's probably these gray areas that we agree on. So let's start there. That is a much, much more powerful way to change someone's mind than to say, you know what? You're an idiot. You believe that about the Yankees. Do you read? Are you illiterate? That's never going to change someone's mind.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:28):

Well, and here's the thing. What I love about this is you can have that opinion and use these tools to A, stay connected to somebody. B, diffuse all the tension and emotion and the righteousness and the name calling. And C, actually use science because you're actually keeping them open-minded to hear your side. And so if you have any chance of influencing other people, this is the way you do it.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:37:56):

Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:57):

What does the data and the research say about arguing?

 

Charles Duhigg (00:38:02):

There are different ways of arguing. And that can be toxic or can be productive. Oftentimes when we're in an argument that fight or flight instinct is going. And so my instinct is that I want to control something that's just a totally natural human instinct that when I feel threatened, I want to find something to control. And the easiest thing to control is the person across the table from me. So I'm going to try and control you in all kinds of ways. I'm going to tell you what topics we can talk about. I'm not going to talk about that. I'm not going to talk about your mother, right? I'm going to try and the timing, I only have five minutes for this conversation. After five minutes I'm taking off, I'm going to try and control your emotions. Oh, you're upset about that. You shouldn't be upset about that. That's not something worthy being upset about. When I try and control you, you feel like I'm taking power from you. Yes. So what do I need to do? Because I have this instinct to control, as do you. We need to find things that we can control together. This is what makes an argument a good argument.

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:02):

Okay? Give me an example.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:39:03):

So first of all, we're going to control, say the environment of it. We start fighting at two o'clock in the morning about, and I say, look, this is really important. I think we need to work this through. Can we wait until 10 o'clock tomorrow and both get a good night's sleep and we'll be well rested and have some breakfast? Is that okay? Right now we're controlling the environment together.

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:24):

And this is also a tactic you can use if somebody is doing the controlling arguing with you.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:39:28):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:30):

Okay.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:39:30):

Another tactic is that we can control the parameters of the argument. Look, if it's okay, let's talk about where we're going for Thanksgiving. I know that there's some issues with my mom and your mom and there's issues about money. Let's just set those aside for right now if it's okay, and just focus on Thanksgiving. We need to make a decision now. We're controlling the boundaries of the argument together. And finally, there's some element of trying to control ourselves. If I have an instinct for control, if I use that for self-control, then it makes me feel better. If I think to myself, I could really lay into him right now, but I'm not going to remember what I heard on Mel's podcast. I'm going to ask a deep question. I'm going to prove I'm listening. Suddenly we feel better. We feel better about ourselves because we're controlling ourselves. We love exerting self-control. It feels good. It feels virtuous. And so instead of me trying to control you, Mel, you got to agree with me. We're not going to talk about that. Instead, what I'm going to do is I'm going to find stuff we can control together. And most importantly, I'm going to say, you know what? I'm the kind of person who can have a conversation like this without using that toxic voice. I'm going to control myself and I'm going to feel good about it.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:39):

Or what my family says to me. Happy to have this conversation with you when you're not this emotional.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:40:45):

You're right.

 

Mel Robbins (00:40:48):

I'm like, okay. You're right. You're right. You're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

 

Charles Duhigg (00:40:52):

Yeah.