Episode: 85
Turn Anxiety Into Power: A 3-Step Process to Master Your Emotions From a Harvard Psychologist
with Dr. Luana Marques, PhD
Turn your anxiety into power...and master big life changes
Harvard professor and anxiety expert Dr. Luana Marques teaches you 3 simple steps to turn anxiety into power.
If stress, self-doubt, or major life changes are holding you back, her practical framework will show you how to master your emotions and embrace transitions with confidence.
From silencing self-doubt to running toward what matters most, Dr. Luana’s insights will transform how you approach change and help you create the life you want.
Listen on:
Lean towards the pain and ask yourself, why does this hurt?
Dr. Luana Marques, PhD
Featured Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:03):
I am very triggered by her anxiety, knowing that there will be a level of discomfort makes me uncomfortable. How can I help her cope with this massive life transition? I think we need to help you cope with the transition because it's, do you know why I'm avoiding you? You are making me talk about something that makes me uncomfortable.
Dr. Luana Marques (00:28):
You are absolutely. You just wanted to run away from your emotions right now.
Mel Robbins (00:30):
Yes. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad that you are here with me because guess what? We're going to get a two for one meaning here's what's going to happen. I have this issue that is kind of coming down the pike and it has to do with transitions. There's a huge big life transition going on in our family. Our daughter's just graduated from college. She's about to come home. She is, as many of you know, a singer-songwriter, which means she does not have a job after college. She doesn't have a roommate after college. She's going to be home for the summer working on new songs, and then she's going to go back to LA and I just feel tense. I feel this wave coming at me when somebody that you love is about to go through something and you yourself brace because you're going to absorb their breakdown.
(01:26):
Maybe you felt that with a kid or maybe you felt that with somebody you're dating, or maybe you felt that with a parent where you see a lot of, you're writing in going, my parents are getting old. I feel this transition to a different chapter coming. Well, that's what I'm doing right now and one of the benefits I'm realizing to launching this podcast is you and I have on speed dial some of the most amazing experts on the planet, and your friend Mel, is not going to put it past herself to reach out and ask for free advice for both of us. Okay? So I'm willing to jump in the hot seat today and use my own train wreck as the kind of learning ground, but I'm going to get a therapy session today from Dr. Luana Marquez. Remember her? She's the bestselling author of Bold Moves and she did a wildly popular episode with us all about this habit that we have of avoidance, avoiding things at are heart, avoiding all kinds of stuff in our life.
(02:27):
You love that episode? And so as I was sitting here this morning starting to get a stomach ache about the fact that our daughter's about to be home, and it's a huge transition and that means I'm going to experience that transition. I thought, Mel, instead of doing what you always do what you do, let the tidal wave of life knock your ass over and then you dial 9 1 1 and have an emergency therapy session. Why not be proactive? Why not use a incredible therapist as a way to think through something that is coming at you? That's a good idea. So I've got Dr. Luana back and I am grateful that she is here for us. And by us I mean me because I need this help and support. And in particular, I want Dr. Luana to walk you and I through this three-step plan that's based on her recent clinical and scientific research that helps you make bold moves and helps you move through transition and helps you help other people move through transition without that tidal wave of life knocking you down. Alright, Dr. Luana, welcome back to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Dr. Luana Marques (03:41):
Thank you, Mel. I'm delighted to be here with you. I'm such a fan and I just feel so excited
Mel Robbins (03:46):
Well, I'm really excited about your new book, bold Move, although I think you should have called it Bold Moves. Once you read it, you feel like you want to do a lot of bold moves and there's so much that I want to talk to you about given your experience as a clinical psychologist, an associate professor at Harvard having an incredible practice in Boston. I just have so many questions to ask you. However, selfishly I really want to talk to you about transitions and we are in a moment of time when this episode's going to come out where there's tons of people graduating and that's a major transition and I am personally bracing Dr. Marquez. I'm bracing, our daughter is graduating from college.
Dr. Luana Marques (04:33):
Oh my God,
Mel Robbins (04:34):
I can feel the panic attack happening. Graduation is in 10 days.
Dr. Luana Marques (04:38):
Wow.
Mel Robbins (04:39):
She's then going to leave California and come home for the summer and she is an artist, a singer-songwriter. So there's no defined career path and I know that the bottom is going to drop out. Why are transitions so damn hard?
Dr. Luana Marques (04:58):
Well, I can feel the pain already for you, Mel. I can just feel like your whole voice changed and there's so many people in the sand, but in fact, the world is in transition since covid. It's a major transition. This is how I think of a transition before we even talk about why it happens or why it's so hard is the way I see transition is somebody wants to go on a journey and there's this idea of this dream life, this thing that you want to do and some voluntary, someone not like your daughter's finishing it's voluntary transition after college and she has this whole life ahead of her, and so that's exciting. But then there is the old right, and the old I see as the shore. And so in transitions we're holding on to the shore of what we know, the certainty of the things that we know sort of worked. It's no longer working by the way, because you want this dream life and then the boat starts to leave and you are holding onto shore and you're holding onto the boat and you start to get stretched thin, and that's what we start to feel. It's that panic that you're talking about.
(05:58):
It's that anxiety. It's that uncertainty that happens. But we are so afraid of discomfort. We avoid discomfort so much that we just continue to hold on and this is the first thing I want to say to everybody. Let go and start swimming. Let go and start swimming because there is no ticket to a perfect life. That holding on is avoidance. And how many people have we heard that stay in a job they dislike, right? It's like holding on to certainty. I mean, I'm in the major of a transition in my life in a career and I'm as scared as you are, but if I just hold onto Harvard because that's what makes me good enough, then I'm never going to get to explore the world.
Mel Robbins (06:38):
Wait a minute, what's the transition here in the middle of?
Dr. Luana Marques (06:40):
Well, so for the past year and a half, I really hit a wall at Harvard, mass General, and I love what I did in terms of research, but I felt like there's so much more that I could do to help so many more people. I wanted to have an impact in the global world in terms of mental health. I wanted to bring that down. And let's be honest, an academic paper is not going to do it, right? It's just not. But I've been terrified to let go of this position and this academic self to jump into this public speaking writing books, and I don't have a path for that. When people ask me what I do now, it's like, well, hi, I do a bunch of things. Eventually I'll talk about the integration of it. But it is scary in transition. It really is. The first thing we all have to talk about is there's fear there
Mel Robbins (07:32):
For sure. There's fear there. Well, I am of course on the other side of the table from you, and I'm really excited. I see a huge opportunity for you to make a massive impact by spending more of your time in the public realm, sharing your work and helping and impacting millions of people's lives by writing books and doing whatever else you may do. But I want to go and talk about the fact that when you write about transitions, especially here in your new book, you talk about values. What is the intersection of the transitions that we all have to go through in life? Whether you're going to move or you're breaking up or you're changing jobs or you're thinking about your dreams or college is ending, what is the intersection of values and transitions?
Dr. Luana Marques (08:27):
So values are so important, and yet most of the time when we talk about them, I feel like values are painting somebody's house. You sort of know they're there, but you don't pay attention to them. So let's define values first, right?
Mel Robbins (08:37):
Okay.
Dr. Luana Marques (08:38):
Values are intrinsic motivators. They are the things that matter the most to us, the things that should be our compass in life, family, religion, wealth, integrity. And so what is the intersection between values and transitions? Well, in transitions, our values are questioned. What matters the most to us? Let me give you a personal example to make this come to life for everybody. Early on in my career, ambition was the value that mattered the most to me. And once you have a value, then we set goals with those values. For me was getting into graduate school, then I had to go get into Harvard, then I was an instructor, so I wanted to be an assistant professor. Ambition was the value, and then I set clear goals to those values. Eventually, I got to associate professor day, I became associate. Professor colleague of mine said to me, so what are you going to do next? You become full professor. And that question bothered me. I was like, but do I want to be a full professor?
Dr. Luana Marques (09:37):
I had driven ambition because see, ambition got me out of poverty. Ambition got me out of Brazil. Ambition is how I define how I would never go back to be poor again, but no longer ambition is working for me. Now, I'd lay in bed at night and I had all the success in Harvard, and yet my brain was just not happy. I couldn't sleep. I put on 40 pounds, 40 pounds. And I kept saying to myself, what if I just write another grant? What if I just write another paper? I don't have the right to feel the way I do with all the privilege I have. And so ambition no longer was suffering me, but I kept going at it, kept going at it. And one day I was sitting in my office writing a grant and half of my face went numb, just numb.
(10:22):
And the first thought I had is wanted this in anxiety. You unhappy at work, you're writing a grant. This is just anxiety. Next thing you know, half of my body starts to tingling and I'm terrified. And then the next thing I thought is, oh my God, I'm having a stroke. I'm having a stroke. So I called the nurse, and meanwhile I'm like, I'm an anxiety researcher. I treat anxiety. This is just anxiety. I don't want to say myself, but half of my body is numb and I just end up at the doctor. My husband drives me. I'm crying. And at that point, I remember going to my primary care me and saying to myself, oh my God, I hit rock bottom. This is no longer working. I know what I'm doing is no longer working, but now I'm about to lose everything I avoided for so long and now I'm having a stroke. And what if I can't speak again? What if everything in my life that I had worked so hard was right in front of me? And I just had this moment of, holy shit, holy shit, I've avoided for so long by falling in this valley. They no longer served me.
(11:25):
And just to avoid my transition, that's all I was doing. I was avoiding this transition. And so it turned out that I wasn't having a stroke, thank God. And they think it was a severe migraine. I've never had a migraine in my life. I don't know the neurologist. It was 48 hours of hell of trying to just look. And that's when I faced reality. That moment was when I paused and was like, I cannot avoid this transition anymore. I'm no longer actually living a value driven life. I'm living an emotion driven life. I'm just trying to not feel uncomfortable. So I keep doing the things.
(11:59):
And you asked me an important question in the beginning, why this transition is so hard? Why does it hurt so much? It's because it creates so much discomfort. And in that moment, I was just avoiding it. I was just avoiding it and I couldn't avoid it anymore. And I just hope, and the reason I share this with people is I hope people wake up before they hit that well, because we hold onto the old so much to not go towards our dreams. And I nearly killed myself in the process and look at this and think about how much skills I have, and I still avoided it.
Mel Robbins (12:35):
How do you figure out what your values are?
Dr. Luana Marques (12:38):
So one of the exercises I use with my patients that I use that day is to actually do the opposite of what anybody does, which is to lean towards the pain. And the days after that nearly stroke, I sat with myself crying early in the morning for many mornings saying, why does this hurt so much? What about this hurts so much? What is it that is missing? What is in my life missing? And what I realized is pain only exists because behind that pain, there is a value that's extremely important that's being violated. It's not that I didn't care about ambition anymore, it's that what I really cared about is I wanted to make a bigger impact in the world. And I knew that the things I was doing were not aligned with impact. They make impact on the patients that I work for. Sure. But I saw the world hurting. I saw the rise in anxiety from the CDC of 40% of Americans with clinical level of anxiety and depression. And here I was sitting in my little house with all the skills that my grandmother gave me that a science gave me. And I wasn't doing anything with it. I wanted to create a podcast.
(13:48):
I didn't have a podcast. I wanted to write a book. I hadn't written a book. I wanted to go out there and meet people like you, and I wasn't doing it. And when I leaned into that pain, I saw impact and I was like, wait a minute. I need to change my entire life. I need to change what I do. And so that's my recommendation. Lean towards the pain and ask yourself, why does this hurt somebody is an asshole to you, okay? They say something mean to you. You just say they're an asshole. But if somebody that you love very much says something like, you hurt me tremendously, now it hurts you. It hurts you because you probably care about that person because you probably love that person. It's not just that said something mean. It's that it violated a core value.
Mel Robbins (14:31):
Wow. I'm trying to think about the example between kind of the transition that you're describing, which is one that I recently went through probably over the last two years of, again, achieved incredible success, but at a cost. And
Mel Robbins (14:53):
I knew that there was something that I valued more than chasing more success. And it was about connection and impact and peace and family and simplicity and artistry. It was about, and you can have more than one value, right?
Dr. Luana Marques (15:12):
A hundred percent. You can have more than value, but slow it down for us. Mel, if you don't mind, I just love what you're saying, but can you just tell me a little bit about the beginning of this transition and chasing success and no longer feeling like success did it?
Mel Robbins (15:26):
Well, yeah. I think a lot of people, somewhere along the line, I got the subliminal or subconscious message that achievement equals love. That if you're performing, if you're busy, if you are making a lot of money, if you're winning awards, if you're doing things that people talk about that that means you're worthy of somebody's love and attention.
Dr. Luana Marques (15:54):
Yes.
Mel Robbins (15:54):
And so having that be a really big motivator, like you say, ambition. I would say if I went a level deeper, it would be love and self-worth. Yes, that was a value that I was trying to create in myself. Of course, I wanted to make an impact. Of course, I wanted to creatively express myself and connect with other people, but my work allowed me to do that. But there was still something that I was pushing up against because what started to happen for me is that once I got to a level of success where I had paid off our debt and I was actively saving money and I could afford to do whatever I wanted to do. I'm not talking Lamborghinis and that kind of crap, but just had a really great lifestyle and was proud of myself. I wasn't happy and I felt like an asshole. You didn't use that word, but I'll use that word with myself. I'm like, what kind of an asshole are you? You're sitting here making an impact on millions of people's lives. You are able to stand on stages and share a message that changes people's lives. You are being flown first class all over the place. You can afford to eat anywhere you want. What the fuck is wrong with you?
(17:18):
And what was wrong with me is one of my core values, if I put it into the language of your work, was severely violated. I was profoundly disconnected from my husband, profoundly disconnected from my kids, and even my more extended family, I never saw anybody. I was working. I had exactly two friends that I saw. And so I was profoundly lonely and I was never not working. And so I just was like, something's got to give. And what actually gave is March 8th, 2020 when my talk show got canceled, and all of a sudden the world turned upside down and I found myself like the entire planet found themselves
(18:05):
Questioning absolutely everything. And what the greatest gift of that massive global transition was for me is it made me really assess what my values truly were. And when my husband and our three kids were then under one roof together, it made me realize how much that's all I wanted to do was be with them. And when I started to do my work, not on stages and not by getting on planes, I'm like, you know what, Mel? It's time to stop talking about and thinking about doing a podcast. It's time to get serious about it. Yes, you have integrity, so you got to wrap up a lot of obligations to be able to do this the right way. And yes, operating with excellence is part of your value, so it's going to take some time to launch the way that you're going to want to launch. But that was the moment for me. It was values driven. And I asked you the question about how you figure out your values because it's a surprisingly hard thing to do. It
Dr. Luana Marques (19:15):
Is so hard. It's so hard. And you actually unpacked so much because I think the world has gone through a value shift in this pandemic. How so?
Dr. Luana Marques (19:26):
Because the values that worked before the pandemic no longer fit for most people. Right? Now we hear people talking about they want more flexibility in their job, they want to work from home. Why? Because they realized the family mattered and it was being compromised by the way they worked and did their family time.
(19:43):
But most people now haven't had the privilege of what you have of being able to pause and reflect. A lot of people are still in the treadmill of life. That's what I see in my office. People call me and they're still trying to fit their old values to this post pandemic life. It needs a realignment. And how do you find your values? Is your question. So I talked about pain. The other way to find values, which I think is what happened to you, is this, lean into the moments that you feel your best. Okay, what about the moments? What's so important, right? You talked about being with your family the way you said, my three kids and my husband, you lighten up. I could just see you in your living room with them during the pandemic. And if I went behind your brain, I could see just Mel being content connected and present,
(20:31):
Right? Versus Mel on the stage was impacting a bunch of people. But then you're in that plane and you're craving that connection, that real connection with family. And so in those moments of flow, in those moments of quietness, ask yourself, what matters in this moment? Why is this moment important to me? Why do I feel good? And our values are right there. I know this. I do dinner with my family every day, and connection and family are two of the values for me are super important. So much so that I came to see you and I'm flying to Miami this week, and I'll be gone for my son for five days. My husband looked at me and said, you know what? I think we should come with you because you need that connection before you're away from him. It's not going to feel good to be away from him Sunday and Monday and then the rest of the week. And so pulled him out of school, they came with me, and this morning he said to me, can we stay an extra day? I really like you here. And just that made me feel so connected with him. And so those moments allow us
Mel Robbins (21:33):
To be connected. Let's talk about the transition that my daughter's going through. How can I help her cope with this massive life transition?
Dr. Luana Marques (21:45):
I think there's two things that you can do, Mel. The first one is I think we need to help you cope with the transition. I'm sorry to say it's a transition for you too. It's a big transition for you. It's ending times. She's coming home. And I heard you say things like, what's next for her? We all have expectations of other people in transition too. So I think first thing is just you pausing and asking yourself about your expectations of her transition.
Mel Robbins (22:13):
You are so good. Wow. Here's how I feel about it. I am very triggered by her anxiety. And so knowing that one of my kids is really uncomfortable makes me want to run and savor from it.
Dr. Luana Marques (22:35):
What about her anxiety makes you feel uncomfortable? What are you saying to yourself? That her anxiety makes you feel anxious?
Mel Robbins (22:43):
That somebody that I love is in pain and I want to make it go away.
Dr. Luana Marques (22:48):
But why?
Mel Robbins (22:52):
I dunno. It hurts my heart to see her because crying and sad and because you love her. And also there'll probably be a level of moping and annoying behavior that gets aimed at my husband and I when she's home and she's not able to tolerate the feelings and the fact that it's over and that college went like that, and her fear about what comes next. And so knowing that there will be a level of discomfort makes me uncomfortable.
Dr. Luana Marques (23:31):
Well, but for you now, what I hear is this. You love your daughter. Yes. And her being uncomfortable, it's being translated in your brain and something is bad, true. And let's be clear, there's transition without discomfort for anybody. She's going to have some level of discomfort that she has to tolerate. And do you have to tolerate? If she didn't mouth something would be wrong. It's true. So the first thing is her being uncomfortable and her anxiety don't necessarily mean something bad. Now it can lead to something bad. But at first I wanted to really think about this as an opportunity for a new beginning.
Dr. Luana Marques (24:07):
She's closing an end, and there's a natural grief that happens for everybody or letting go of the old. And so she's going to come home with some level of discomfort. A lot of the kids coming home from college are going to have some level of discomfort. And I think the first thing the parents can do is allow discomfort to exist a little bit. Maybe not going into fix right away. And if it gets thrown at you, like the way you're talking about just pausing and calling it out, saying, Hey, listen, it looks like you're upset and you're throwing it at me, and this is not my transition, right? Holding space from discomfort is the first thing a parent can do.
Mel Robbins (24:45):
Well, I think this is even bigger because if you think about it, if you have a spouse or a partner that gets fired from a job, you're going to have somebody that you love go through discomfort. If you have a friend who, I have a friend who just lost their dad, and of course they're going through a period of discomfort, or at least I just want to run towards it and try to fix it and make it go away. And I think you're right. It's that I in my brain associate these transitions and life and these moments of emotional processing and upheaval as bad.
Dr. Luana Marques (25:24):
So you were trying to fix it. I had a friend of mine just got fired from a job after 10 years financial industry. She just woke up one day and got fired. So she texted me, I canceled everything and said, let's go for lunch. We sitting at lunch and the first thing she said to me is like Luana, a week ago I was walking into work and I just wanted my ID to not go through. I wanted them to have fired me already. I was so miserable, but I just didn't want to quit. It pays the bills. And I looked at her and I said, we're best friends, and you never told me that level of discomfort. People are so ashamed of how they interpret discomfort. They don't even share.
(26:03):
And then I looked at her and I said, how are you feeling? She's like, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. And I paused and I looked at her, lemme call her Mary. And I said, Mary, it's okay not to be okay. And for a week, Mel, when I called her, she's like, it's okay. I said, it is not okay. You just got fired and you are the one that pays most of the bills in your house. If you're not feeling uncomfortable right now, something is wrong. And I want you to know it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to have this comfort right now, and if you run from it, you're just going to avoid the rest of your life. So the first step here in transition is to feel our feelings. I don't want to feel my feelings.
Mel Robbins (26:45):
I wanted to not feel that way.
Dr. Luana Marques (26:47):
But see, that's the only way to feel more uncomfortable is not feeling our feelings. So feelings are normal, biologically wired, and we have them. Our brain tells us when we feeling uncomfortable, and then what we do, we run, we avoid, and then we feel more uncomfortable. And the only way of actually getting through your emotions is by feeling feelings. We've seen this on kids. Look at a five-year-old in a temper tantrum.
(27:16):
If you tell them, stop feeling this way, stop feeling this way, they escalate. They get so loud and obnoxious. It's true. If you sit next to a five yearold and say, okay, so you're feeling frustrated, what else are you feeling? And my son will be like, I don't want to tell my emotions right now. I said, okay, so you're feeling like you don't want to feel. And I just sit there and I wait. And guess what? His emotional brain calls off his thinking brain comes back online and it lasts three minutes instead of 20 minutes of a fight.
Mel Robbins (27:52):
So what do I do?
Dr. Luana Marques (27:56):
Yeah. So I think two things we're going to
Mel Robbins (27:57):
Do. Oh, that's right. We were talking about me, not her. See how I wanted to shift this? Do you know why I'm avoiding you? You are making me talk about something that makes me uncomfortable.
Dr. Luana Marques (28:07):
You are absolutely. You just want it to run away from your emotions right now.
Mel Robbins (28:11):
Yes.
Dr. Luana Marques (28:12):
Do you see how fast it happens now? Yes. And we do this. That's one of the tactics of avoidance. We just shift the conversation. It's much safer in your podcast to talk about your daughter and her transition, her anxiety than just sit here with I'm having trouble feeling my feelings right now.
Mel Robbins (28:27):
Yeah. I'm absorbing her transition as my own.
Dr. Luana Marques (28:31):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (28:32):
Wow. So I just need to feel my feelings
Dr. Luana Marques (28:35):
And
Mel Robbins (28:35):
I need to avoid the urge to rush in and fix it. And I need to just hold space and let her and myself feel whatever we're going to feel.
Dr. Luana Marques (28:49):
And what do you feel right now? Can we just stay with that? What does it feel like right now?
Mel Robbins (28:54):
I feel really sad for her. Tell me more. Oh my God. Really? Okay. Yes. I feel like the tractor beam lock on. I feel really sad for her. I had a really crappy end to my college experience where I got extremely sick and they thought I had meningitis and I experienced graduation by laying underneath a tree on the side, and I didn't don't even remember walking across that stage. I'm not sure I was well enough.
Dr. Luana Marques (29:29):
Wow. So you're really upset about yourself, Mel. That's what you really said about you didn't have a graduation. What makes us say that your daughter's graduation is going to be under a tree?
Mel Robbins (29:37):
Oh, it's not. She's singing the national anthem in front of 18 people.
Dr. Luana Marques (29:42):
Wait, wait.
Mel Robbins (29:42):
That bitch is going to be on stage. She's not going to be
Dr. Luana Marques (29:44):
Under some tree. She's going to be on stage. Yeah, but see, your brain is back at your graduation. That's why you feel sad.
Mel Robbins (29:52):
Oh wow.
Dr. Luana Marques (29:53):
She's going to be on stage now singing. She's not under a tree. You're not feeling sad for your daughter. You're feeling sad that you got robbed your own graduation. That would make me sad too. I mean, seeing you under that tree right now just made my heart crunch. I had a little heart moments that
Mel Robbins (30:08):
Yeah, it's true. It's true. And I think I'm also just so much of your work also focuses on avoidance. And I'm very present to the fear that she feels now that school's over and it's time to do the work. You want to be a singer-songwriter, prove it. And I just feel worried for her.
Dr. Luana Marques (30:38):
Of course you do. You're a mother, you love her. We establish the love matters. So worried for her makes a lot of sense. Concerned that this transition is going to be hard for a lot of kids, is the first time they have to really prove themselves the first time that they have to really show up. Because see, college has a map. You do this and you do this, and you do this. The real life transitions don't have a map. They come with uncertainty. Uncertainty activates our brain. It makes us go on fight, flight, or freeze. And that's why we want to avoid in transitions because the fear is overriding it, but you have the techniques to help her. It's going to be her choosing to approach every day. And it sounds like she has a clear value. She cares, and I am going to put the words in your mouth, but she cares about creativity. She cares.
(31:22):
And so now she needs to create clear goals. And we are here in the studio. You have amazing systems already that you develop for yourself. You help her develop her own systems around what are the actions she's going to take every day towards that value. And life happens one little day at a time. You don't become on stage and become the best singer overnight. So she's going to have to lean towards that value every day.
Dr. Luana Marques (31:47):
And what I'd say to her is this, every week on Sunday, look at your calendar for the next week. Make sure that your actions are aligned with your values. Every day. I do this every Sunday. I look in a day. I'm not acting towards impact or family or health, which is another one for me. I'm not putting 40 pounds back on, so I need to get to the gym. And if it's not there, I rearrange my day. Because what science teaches us is that a value driven life decreases stress, decreases depression, decreasing anxiety, increases wellbeing. And so I bet your daughter who is now singing the national anthem kicking ass, can't create this beautiful life one little action at a time.
Mel Robbins (32:30):
Well, here's the irony. The lack of structure is probably exactly what she needs.
Dr. Luana Marques (32:35):
Correct.
Mel Robbins (32:35):
There's probably the container has been amazing for the stage that she's in, and now it's time for her to go and create what she needs to create.
Dr. Luana Marques (32:47):
That's it. That's
Mel Robbins (32:48):
It. Wow. I just got so much out of that conversation. And I love the values as a way to anchor yourself through a transition. That's it.
Dr. Luana Marques (32:58):
Wow. Because see, if you go to transitions and you don't have an anchor, right? I love the word you used. That is a word I think about. It's like the visual I share with patients is you're in a boat, it's choppy waters, and you just going, whatever the wind is blowing in choppy waters, you've got to drop an anchor. And that anchor is your values. And now you decide, okay, now that I'm anchored, I know the values. Then you decide which way you're going to seal in your life. But you have to have an anchor first so that you're not just blown everywhere. And your daughter is an awesome position because it's clear to me she has the anchor. Now it's a matter of action, but values are the real anchors in
Mel Robbins (33:39):
Life. I think this is so helpful. We get so many people that are writing in right now about career transition, about, I have a number of female friends whose husbands are having these crises where they're looking back and going, I didn't do what I thought I would do with my career, and I feel ashamed. And so using values and just anchoring yourself on it and helping it be a north star for you is, okay, this is what I care about moving forward. What are the actions that show this? I want to show you something. Okay? Just stay right there. I'm going to go get it. I think it's here. This is something.
(34:19):
So when I had this huge transition and we moved up here to Southern Vermont, and we did it because our son wanted to change. He did not want to go to high school in Boston, and it was in the middle of the world being turned upside down. And we were like, okay, we'll try it. And he changed overnight. And so we decided to go all in, and I came here kicking and screaming, anxiety attack after anxiety attack. There is no target, no Walmart here. How am I going to live here? There are 3000 people here. Are you kidding me? The nearest airport is an hour and a half. What the fuck are we doing? I was just a toddler throwing a temper tantrum for months. And then I don't even know what made me do it. It was probably an act of desperation. I was spiraling so badly through this transition that I wrote on a post-it note, all of the reasons why we were here that I needed to remind myself of. I'm going to grab it. I think it's still in my office, and I'm kind of scared to read it because I was in a pretty bad state.
Dr. Luana Marques (35:47):
That's where happens.
Mel Robbins (35:48):
But I use this to rescue myself. Lemme get, okay. Okay, hold on. Oh my God, it's here. Oh my God, it's here.
Dr. Luana Marques (36:03):
I'm so excited to see this.
Mel Robbins (36:05):
I don't know why I'm doing this for myself,
Dr. Luana Marques (36:07):
Because you are inspiring people, Mel, to transition. Because if they lean on the pain, they can come in the other way.
Mel Robbins (36:15):
Okay, so here it is. I got to figure out, maybe
Dr. Luana Marques (36:21):
You want to put it here.
Mel Robbins (36:21):
Why don't I put it on the table?
Dr. Luana Marques (36:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Mel Robbins (36:23):
Okay,
Dr. Luana Marques (36:24):
Let's do it.
Mel Robbins (36:25):
I put it on the table. Okay. Oh my God. Let's do this. Oh my God, I'm so excited. Oh my God. This was in my office, you guys. I would walk up here, I would wake up in the morning and I would look out the window at this gorgeous view where you don't see a single building or a single human being. And I would say to myself something empowering like, why the fuck did I do this? I was lonely and disconnected in Boston. How the hell am I going to feel better? And then I'd be like, no, no, no, no. There's something in you. And I'd walk up to my office and I'd be wiping away the tears. And so here is what I would remind myself of my values at the top. This is I just said my why. Number one, you're here for peace and feeling deeply connected to my life, love and mission. Look at
Dr. Luana Marques (37:23):
That. Just pause in there. What do you feel when you say that's yourself
Mel Robbins (37:30):
Is true? When I wrote this, I wanted to believe
Dr. Luana Marques (37:35):
That, but first, we don't believe it. By the way, when we first identify our values, you're so scared of living a value driven life that I bet in the beginning you're still had those fears. The brain wants to fight, transition so hard. Then that narrative like there's no Walmart, there's no target, there's no this, but I want peace. But how about the Walmart? It's so true because it happens to all of
Mel Robbins (38:02):
Us
Dr. Luana Marques (38:03):
In that moment, identifying our values, shedding that light into what matters most. But then it takes action to live that life. But can share one more, at least I want
Mel Robbins (38:14):
To have more. Oh, I can read 'em all more time having fun with family and friends and spend more time with Oakley and Chris.
Dr. Luana Marques (38:20):
Look at that connection. Connection.
Mel Robbins (38:22):
It's incredible. Build a simple, beautiful and elegant business model that runs like a clock and makes me happy and able to do my best work.
Dr. Luana Marques (38:33):
Do you know what I love about that one? If I may reflect a little bit, the skill that I talk a lot in my book is called Align. Align is the idea of aligning values and action. But I believe in an aligned life where your job and your family and connection, they all come together. It's like an orchestra playing so that your job is not rubbing you from your family and your family is not taking time away from your job because it's well orchestrated. I love this because you're basically saying the multiple parts of my values have to all fit. And this value pie is how I see. It's a slice of a pie of a pizza pie
Mel Robbins (39:11):
And
Dr. Luana Marques (39:12):
Connection and your business, your values, and they all fitting together. This is why you're so happy. I can see it.
Mel Robbins (39:20):
Oh, I'm a different human being and I need to just say, when I wrote this, I was sobbing hysterically convincing myself that moving here was the biggest mistake I had ever made. And I wrote this as an act of desperation. I think Amy might've even been here that day. And just like I got to put a beacon out, I got to remind myself why in the storm of my mind, I have to be able to see on a fucking wall. I mean, this is a huge one of these big sticky post-it things. If you're not watching this on YouTube with us and you're listening to us. And I took a sharpie out and I wrote this, and then I wrote Global Impact through higher leveraged use of my time, entertaining and impacting and changing lives. And then I wrote, have fucking fun. See friends every day. Hi Jesse and Amy. I see my close friends every day and travel for fun with family and friends, not just for work. Look at that, look at that. And she fucking did it. I literally wrote this shit down, went in the middle of a breakdown, and I've spent the last two years slowly, day by day, transforming this business and transforming my habits and my mindset to align with this thing that did not exist when I wrote it.
Dr. Luana Marques (40:52):
That's it. See, you leaned against the pain, right? You're in the middle of tears. And what people want to do when they in tears, they want to avoid you basically said, why? I want a gin and tonic. That's what I wanted when I For sure. Why not? Let's numb it out. Let's numb it out. That's right. I was avoiding it, right? But manel, if you create the life aligned with values, then you're in flow state all the time. Now, if you're going to have discomfort anyhow, so I say to people, if you're going to have those tears anyhow, might as well use them. Why the fuck feel bad and not use that pain in a way that actually gets you on bind and this and you're proof of it
Mel Robbins (41:29):
Two years. And then on the other side of this list, I have this way to break down the fear because it was just all fear. I mean, this was all brand new. I was reinventing everything. I was going through a major transition. The rest of the world was too. And even though I had all these values written down on one side of this post-it note, the fear was just overwhelming. And so I gave myself this little cheat sheet that I would notice the bitch inside me and the fear. And then I made myself this promise and this aligns so much with your work. And we had not even met
Dr. Luana Marques (42:05):
Yet.
Mel Robbins (42:06):
It's two years ago. Don't run. Yeah,
Dr. Luana Marques (42:08):
It's incredible because what I see here is what we've been talking about, this idea of you don't want to feel your feelings, but we have to fear our feelings. You cried to write this and then you said approach. Don't run this approach. Stay with it, but stay with it in a value driven way. You have a three step approach to transitions. Can you walk us through it? So in transitions, you need to shift, approach and align. First, you're going to shift your perspective. Learn to talk to yourself as your best friend. And you're talking about here, notice the bitch and the fear, right? I love it. That's shifting the way you're talking to yourself, right? Second, you want to approach, don't run in transitions. Go towards discomfort. Really lean in on living a comfortable, uncomfortable life. And three, align, align values and action. So in the middle of transition, lean into the pain, list your values, and then create action items. And that's what you did actually limit, because I see items in this list, they're values, and then you're talking about building your business based on those values and then go do it. Then go do it. The transition is going to be uncomfortable. There's no transition that doesn't have discomfort, but holding on to the old just keeps you stuck.
Mel Robbins (43:23):
I am getting so much out of this conversation, both for my own transitions that will come, but more importantly for where I am right now around supporting other people through transitions. Because as I listened to you talk about the fact that you need to, it wasn't flip. What was it? What was the first one? Shift, shift, shift. You have to shift your perspective and your focus. You have to then approach, which is leaning into the pain. That's where you're going to find your values. That's where you're going to find the lessons. And then you align your actions with these new values that you identify through the pain of the transition, whether it's a breakup or graduation. And what I'm realizing is that the number of times that I have rushed in to try to save one of my kids from a hard period by fixing it all, oh, I'll give you the script. I'll do this. I'll call that person for you. I'm actually robbing them of what happens when you turn toward the thing that you're avoiding and the discomfort and you approach it.
Dr. Luana Marques (44:37):
Absolutely. That's beautifully put.
Mel Robbins (44:39):
I mean, I just realized that if I try to make it okay for, let's just use the example of my daughter stepping out of something she loved dearly for four years and stepping into the big unknown. If I don't give her the space to feel all of the discomfort, she actually needs that discomfort right now. She needs it to discover something within herself. And if I remove it, I am also removing something she needs from her life.
Dr. Luana Marques (45:11):
That's it.
Mel Robbins (45:12):
Wow.
Dr. Luana Marques (45:13):
Yeah. You're robbing her for a chance of living her best life. And in fact, what we do is we prolong people's pain because eventually it's going to hit. Eventually she has to go through the discomfort to find her values to leave her most meaningful life. And you're going to feel uncomfortable anyhow. I might as well do it right away.
Mel Robbins (45:31):
Holy cow. I'm just sitting here going, boy did I fuck up at times was a parent. I really robbed my kids of some of the lessons they needed. And that's why the lessons keep repeating, don't they? That's
Dr. Luana Marques (45:44):
Why the lessons keep repeating. And you did Mel, because you love them so much. And I want everybody to hear this is important. Parenthood is hard. None of us are perfect. We're got to mess it up. I have a friend who's a psychologist who has a joke that she says that every time she mess it up, she puts money in the therapy jar. She's like, I know they're going to need therapy. I might as well just put some money there. I'm the one masking up sometimes. But that's just parenthood. That's how it goes. But we can actually prevent from doing that by just letting them live their lives and sitting with discomfort and actually modeling it. Show your daughter this and say, create your own. Create your own. Have her create this. That
Mel Robbins (46:23):
Idea,
Dr. Luana Marques (46:24):
I have her take responsibility
Mel Robbins (46:25):
For it. I think everybody should create one of these. We're going to take a photo of it and link it to the show notes so that you can see what I wrote sobbing two years ago about what my north star was going to be. And it was all because of the pain.
Dr. Luana Marques (46:39):
That's all because pain. That
Mel Robbins (46:40):
Made me bring the what do I value? What is worth going through this pain for? And everything on the left hand side of this post-it note and everything that'll be on your post-it note that you value will be worth going through. The pain for
Dr. Luana Marques (46:55):
It is, and that's how it gets you integration, right? For me, I had this moment that I just wanted to run from Harvard and mass gen. I was like, you know what? It's like this small box and it's not aligned with impact. And so I wanted to divorce it. I wanted to avoid it. And yet there's this huge part of me. I'm an academic at heart, I think as an academic. And so I actually wanted to avoid so bad that I called my boss up and I have this incredible chair in psychiatry. He's amazing. And I said to him, I said, Mauricio, I'm done. This is causing me too much pain. It's too restricted. And I'm with a chair sobbing on a zoom call, and he paused and he says, what is the problem? I said, it's just too small. Everything has bureaucracy and I can't just go do things.
(47:40):
And he's like, so what I hear you saying is there's a part of it that you still like. And I said, yeah, I mean I created all this training material for paraprofessionals and I really care about it. It's not like I don't care about training paraprofessional. In fact, we need more workforce and that's the future. But I wanted to create a podcast. I want to write a book, and so I want to quit. And he's like, what if we just work to eventually decrease your percent effort? You're here a day or two a week, we can discuss what that looks like. And you don't have to give up being associate professor, however we are proud of, we wanted to be associate professor, but you also don't want to limit you Luana and his ability to hold space. He could have done, he could set go.
(48:22):
He could have said, no way. You have to stay a hundred percent. He held space. He did for me. What I hope you do for your daughter, he let me sit in discomfort and cry with him. And I said to him, I don't know. I came out of the conversation not knowing, and he said, you sit with it and figure it out. And so as I launch this new piece of my life, I'll have the Harvard point. I'm going to stay and I'm negotiating with him how small that becomes and what it looks like. But I don't want to give that up. Why do we teach a class together? We totally should teach a class together. I've
Mel Robbins (48:51):
Been dying to teach a,
Dr. Luana Marques (48:52):
Oh my God class. We should totally teach a class together. We should create a Harvard X course together. That's what we should do. Do you know why they have millions of people on Harvard X and we can create a course together. Let's do it. And they would totally love for us to be there together. We could elevate this and people could get certificates. We could even get them to give a better certificate for this class. So maybe we can train paraprofessionals together through Harvard X.
Mel Robbins (49:15):
Okay, explain what peer professionals are. I know what they are, but I want our audience to understand just what an incredible gift you are to the world.
Dr. Luana Marques (49:24):
So paraprofessionals are people that are working in the world. They are working, delivering skills, not therapy, cognitive behavior, therapy skills. And they are in organizations working with inner city youth, for example. And I've been doing this a lot, but not at a level. And Harvard acts as the platform. In fact, I have a course with them coming out that is not about the skills that we're talking about. And it has some of the skills. I shouldn't say it's not, it's just the packaging is different. I got an email from somebody in France saying to me, listen, I want to do more of this. Is there a better certificate that I can get that allow me to do this? And I bet the two of us together can get Harvard to do a certificate.
Mel Robbins (50:03):
I bet they could. And what we're talking about is having anybody be able to get certified in training other people in the skills of emotional regulation in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is basically understanding how your thoughts link to your beliefs and then to your actions. Learning how to put yourself in pause and to shift and then approach and then align and then integrate all of this into your life so that you could have a certificate in hand as a teacher, as a parole officer, as a youth advisor, as a minister, as a mom who's wanting to have this training when you go in and volunteer somewhere. That is exactly
Dr. Luana Marques (50:53):
The world I've been dreaming to create because a well-regulated adult can regulate kids. And we've been talking about the rising in mental health concerns in kids, but I have teachers call me now saying, I ran out of the classroom. I'm so anxious. I just run out. I dunno how to regulate myself. How is that teacher going to be able to handle a kid who is anxious in the classroom? And there's skills that we can all learn and get ahead of this, so let's go do it together
Mel Robbins (51:20):
In I have a friend who is in education and she has said that she is startled by the number of parents that are now coming in droves, complaining and just coming in droves, complaining about normal children behavior, saying, this is bullying. This is harassment. We need to get the lawyers involved. And it's their own anxiety.
Dr. Luana Marques (51:49):
That's it. That's their own anxiety. I look at parents in the playground now and I go my five-year-old, and the kids start to bicker a little bit and parents step in. We are stopping kids from learning to regulate. Kids need to be able to push back against each other. And I'm not talking about hurting each other. Kids were able to do this before and they become well-regulated adults. And now we have this generation of parents that want the school to manage their kids when they need to also manage their kids, who is,
Mel Robbins (52:17):
They need to manage themselves.
Dr. Luana Marques (52:18):
We need manage themselves. And when it comes to kids who is responsible for your kid's emotional health, everyone that touches that kid is responsible for their emotional health because you have the ability to teach them a skill. The janitor in the school, the cafeteria lady, the teacher, the school bus, you and I, if we meet a kid, we should be able to teach them a little dosage of a skill.
Mel Robbins (52:40):
That's right. Kids cannot calm themselves down.
Dr. Luana Marques (52:42):
No, their brain is not in development. Our brain is not fully developed until we're 30. They cannot do it. Their prefrontal cortex, they don't have breaks. Kids do not have breaks when their emotions go up. The adults have to teach to regularly, and we are all responsible. It's true. When their emotions go up, we must put the
Mel Robbins (53:01):
Pause. Yes, we are responsible in ourselves and bring ourselves down.
Dr. Luana Marques (53:05):
That's it. So that we can teach them how to pause.
Mel Robbins (53:07):
Wow. I want to ask you one more question before we just kind of knock out these advice questions. You said that the world went through this major transition and you have had a clinical practice through it. What have you seen in the people that you're treating?
Dr. Luana Marques (53:30):
So I've seen people feel more and more anxious, more and more uncomfortable, and people are having trouble accepting that discomfort is not the problem I've seen before the pandemic, I got patients to understand avoidance a lot faster. I think the degree of anxiety is so high right now that even in therapy, I see their brains locking and it's like I'm saying the same thing again and again in a different way because the brain can't hear when we are on fight, fight and freeze. It's like our brain's out for lunch with friends and we can't get in. And I've seen this in more and more people locked. That's how I see. I see the world locked. And we're talking about transition today. So it's really important. And I see everybody wanting to hold on to their selves pre pandemic, but this used to work before the pandemic. Why doesn't work anymore? It doesn't. You're a different person. The world has changed and you need to pause, look at your values before you can create the life you want.
Mel Robbins (54:28):
It's so true. It is a conflict of values. It is a conflict of values that you have had something shift in your values in the last three years, and you have not hit the pause and done the work to align your life with this shift in values.
Dr. Luana Marques (54:42):
So you keep doing the same thing you did before. The outcome is not the same because you've shifted and the world shifted and you keep getting frustrated and you blame the anxiety. Anxiety is not the problem here. Oppo is that we are avoiding our emotions and our transitions.
Mel Robbins (54:56):
Wow.
Dr. Luana Marques (54:58):
So damn good. The only reason that question comes up and applies to you is because you are not comfortable in your own life. But we want to avoid transition. So we just like we replace and throw into other people when really it's like we are not doing well. We are the problem, not the friends. They're moving. They're doing things that we sort of want to do, but it's a secret between ourselves. And we're like, that's the
Mel Robbins (55:21):
Problem. That's the bold move.
Dr. Luana Marques (55:22):
That's the bold move.
Mel Robbins (55:24):
Oh, you are so good. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this wisdom with us
Dr. Luana Marques (55:30):
Thank you, Mel. And I want to particularly thank you for your vulnerability here. I pressed a little hard on their emotions. I know I made you uncomfortable, but staying with it I think will help people see that you can overcome and that by feeling feelings, we're actually in a better place to live our best life. So thank you.
Mel Robbins (55:46):
Well, thank you for pressing me because I understand now what's actually going on underneath the surface, and I'm not concerned at all because of our conversation about our daughter coming home.
Dr. Luana Marques (55:59):
Look at that. And that's what we hope for everybody listening to us. Just think, and you could be concerned for weeks, you're talking about panic attacks, and now we just get to enjoy the national anthem and I want to see the video. First thing,
Mel Robbins (56:08):
I will get you the video, but I literally had a major shift happen because I authentically, I'm not paying lip service to this. I authentically see the discomfort as a really, really important thing her to experience and my job is to simply hold space and support her as she experiences it.
Dr. Luana Marques (56:31):
That's it.
Mel Robbins (56:32):
Yeah. I mean, I look at my own transformation, white knuckling through this massive life change over these past two years and how much I hated it, how much, at one point I tried to get the house back that we sold. I mean, just hold it onto the old, hold it on. Oh my God. And thank God I went through this. Yes, thank God.
Dr. Luana Marques (56:55):
Yeah. I feel the same way Now I the mornings crying, trying to figure out what to do next. They were so important. I feel like my life integrated now. I have this little girl grew up in Portland, Brazil, a Harvard professor, accomplished author who now can go and take on in the world, and if I hadn't gone through that pain, I wouldn't be here.
Mel Robbins (57:14):
Well, thank God you did, because we're all benefiting from it. Oh, look at how far we've come, everyone. You and me. Look what we're doing. Let's lock arms and keep doing this life thing together. Okay. I love Dr. Luana, and I love you. I really do. I want to make sure to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to make these bold moves. I mean, you heard it right here. I've been crying. Dr. Luann has been crying, trying to figure it out. We're all crying and we're trying, and as long as you keep trying and making those bold moves, you now have the three-part framework in order to move through absolutely anything. Alrighty. I'll talk to you in a few days. Okay, let me clap. Sorry, that's not to startle you awake. You have a three step approach to all transitions.
(58:12):
Oh, I should ask, what is it? Alright. Do you remember where we were? I don't remember. You were in the middle of saying something about, oh my God. Hold on a second. I think this is the traffic trash man. Is that Chris in the barn? Is he sanding? Can you hear Chris sawing? Here's our recycling. I dunno why they don't pick it up at the same time. This is why we're getting a soundproof studio in Boston. Oh, and one more thing, and no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it. Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.
Key takeaways
You’re not helping your loved ones by fixing their pain; you’re robbing them of the growth that comes when they face discomfort, feel it, and move through it.
You’re not feeling anxious “for them”; you’re projecting your own unfinished pain onto their journey and calling it love when it’s actually avoidance.
You can’t regulate your child’s emotions until you regulate yourself first. Kids need an adult who knows how to sit with their own discomfort.
Avoiding your feelings only amplifies them. When you finally stop and feel them, you’ll find they’re not fatal, they’re foundational.
If you keep trying to live by the values you had before everything changed, you're going to burn out. Your life now needs a new set of values.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Luana Marques, PhD
Dr. Luana Marques is a clinical psychologist, author, and Associate Professor at Harvard Medical School. She is the former President of the Anxiety and Depression Association of America.
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Book: Bold Move
Bold Move is Harvard-based psychotherapist Dr. Luana Marques’ unique, tried and tested method to get you out of your rut and give you the courage to create a more confident and meaningful life. Dr. Luana pinpoints the anxiety at the root of avoidance and shows you how to overcome it and achieve your goals.
Resources
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- Harvard Business Review: How to find, define, and use your values.
- National Institutes of Health: How clarity around values create a framework for community activism
- Science Daily: Connect to your values before speaking for better relationships
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