The Exact Words You Need to Hear Today if You’re Feeling Stuck

Mel Robbins (00:00:13):

That's the magic of my guest today. Mark Nepo. He's the number one New York Times bestselling author of The Seminal work, the Book of Awakening, which has changed millions of people's lives, including mine and my husband. Chris, can you talk a little bit about what Mark's work has meant to you in your life?

 

Chris Robbins (00:00:36):

Everything. Some of the gifts that you've offered me is just noticing that there's lots to listen to, not just outside, but inside.

 

Mark Nepo (00:00:50):

What I want to offer is that the difficulty of any moment is only half of reality. Life is more than anything we could dream of If we truly meet each other and meet ourselves right here, right now,

 

Mel Robbins (00:01:09):

I have a feeling that the person listening is either before the wall of fire or watching somebody else in their life deeply struggling.

 

Chris Robbins (00:01:17):

Often the intent is to focus on one thing when really we're dealing with a kaleidoscope. And how do you actually try to take in absorb all of that?

 

Mark Nepo (00:01:30):

There's two ways that human beings will basically learn. One is by willfully shedding and the other is by being broken open. And if you don't willfully shed, don't worry, you'll be broken open.

Mark Nepo (00:01:56):

Well, it's an honor to be here. I'm so appreciate you've all made me so welcome. I'm just so looking forward to being together.

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:03):

Me too. And Chris Robbins, this is your debut in the Boston Studios. Thank you for being here too.

 

Chris Robbins (00:02:10):

Thanks for having me in

 

Mel Robbins (00:02:12):

Mark. I'd love to start by having you speak directly to the person who's here with us, who made the time to spend it together with you today and me and Chris, and to learn from you. And I'd love to have you just speak to them and share what they could experience in their life that could be different.

 

Mark Nepo (00:02:31):

Yeah. So first, thank you for being here and taking time to gather like this. I think some of the things that are so important and available to everyone is that life is always where we are. I think one of the big menacing assumptions in the modern world is that life is other than where we are, it's over there. The fomo, fear of missing out there is no there. There's only here. And great love and great suffering are the great teachers of this. I think one of the things in our age right now is that so many people seem to have lost their direct connection to life. And it is so isolating, is so challenging. My job, whether it's in writing or teaching, my calling is to open a heart space that we can enter together. And in that heart space, we start to discover that we're more together than alone.

 

Mel Robbins (00:03:39):

I'm so happy you're here.

 

Mark Nepo (00:03:41):

Me too.

 

Mel Robbins (00:03:42):

Well, your work has had a profound impact on my life, on Chris's life, on our family's life. And I'm talking about the Book of Awakening that I just have to say, Chris is the one who introduced your work to our family. And so before we share some of our favorite passages, can you talk a little bit about how you discovered this book or what this book means to you or what Mark's work has meant to you in your life?

 

Chris Robbins (00:04:19):

Everything. This book came to me when my heart was not open. I had gotten pretty heavy into meditation, was studying Buddhism and somebody, we were talking about this concept of quieting the mind and meditation and somebody said, oh, well, I just read one of these passages before I drop in. And that was sort of the beginning of me finding this book. And I think just looking back on what has been a decade plus of both reading and rereading this and sharing it profusely, it has been the source of my own awakening, if you will. And also just a reminder to your point about how nobody has the answers. I love what you said earlier. We're all just here comparing notes. And this is a book that I give away in all of the men's work that I do.

 

Mel Robbins (00:05:47):

Oh, thank you.

 

Chris Robbins (00:05:49):

It provides a light and a lens into our own humanity, my own humanity.

 

Mark Nepo (00:05:58):

Oh, thank you.

 

Chris Robbins (00:06:00):

Thank you.

 

Mark Nepo (00:06:00):

You're welcome. It means a lot.

 

Mel Robbins (00:06:03):

I went through a large part of my life closed off and in my head, or detached or disassociated or anxious or just like the doing and the climbing of the ladder and getting to the next thing and go disconnected from life itself, as you would say in terms of this feel of it. There was so much of the doing and the achieving, and I just thought, this is what life is. And that is a form of life. And too many people get to their deathbed and realize that there could have been a different way to experience life and a different way to slow down and really truly connect with what matters. And it's right there in front of you. And what I hope out of this conversation, because it's the thing that I've gotten out of your work, is this ability to wake up from autopilot or from the feeling that you're in a relationship that feels like roommates or that you are stuck or resigned or closed off, but you don't know how to access something else. There is something else that is possible. If the person listening really resonates with that sense that I've lost the direct connection to life, or there's somebody in my life that I'm worried about who seems to have lost their direct connection to life, the spark's gone. They seem really stuck. You see the potential, you see the light, you're holding it out for them, but they don't see it. Or maybe the person listening doesn't feel it. What would you say to them, Mark?

 

Mark Nepo (00:07:56):

I think two questions, nonjudgmental questions that I find myself asking both loved ones and students and people I'm with, especially people who are struggling is what's it like to be you right now? What's it like to be you? And the other is what do you care about? And invite them to tell that story and not even tell them they're stuck. What good does that do or cheer up did ever work? Yeah. What's it like to be you? What's it like? And this came, I learned this from, I mean, one of the best things for me about teaching is in opening that heart space when people enter and are real, when who's the teacher moves around the room, it doesn't get better than that.

 

(00:09:01):

One of this story where this question came to me was I was teaching in Charleston at the Sophia Institute, a place I love. The question I had asked was, can you in pairs, we broke up in little groups, can you share one thing you hold to be true with the other person? So this mother and son came up to me in the middle and the mother spoke and she said, well, we're stuck. I said, well, what's going on? And meanwhile, her son, who is probably 28, about six four, he's just got this R smile on his face and she says, well, I told Jack what was true for me, but he said that he doesn't think anything's true. So we an impasse, and I didn't know I was going to say this, but because they shared my heart, said, well, I'm inviting you to listen to each other. So if your son moved to China, would you ask him what's it like to live in China? What brought you there? Do you like living there? Do you see yourself staying there? Well, he's told you he lives in the land where nothing is true. Can you ask him what's it like to live in the land where nothing is true? What brought you there?

 

(00:10:22):

And he's smiling the whole time, not saying a word. And they went back. Well, what happened in the retreat was there was another mother grieving that she had a son of a similar age about a month earlier who had died in a car crash.

 

(00:10:36):

And watching this mother and son, she a little later in the weekend burst into tears and left the room. And we took a break and made sure she was okay. And when she came back into the room, this young man who didn't believe anything was true was the first one to run across the room and sweep her up in his arms. And so at the end of the retreat, as we were saying goodbye to different people, and he was taller than me and I went up, he came up and I said, can I share something with you? He said, sure. And I put my hand on his heart and I said, whatever caused you to reach out to that grieving mother that was true. Now that you can't plan things like that, he who believed nothing was true was the teacher that weekend.

 

Chris Robbins (00:11:49):

It's one of the reasons why I think this, some of your teachings and your writings are so profound because you are not offering answers. And even this book of awakening, I think it doesn't lead people to what is true. It doesn't force people to ask for help, but it does invite by way of the prompts and the reflections. It inspires people to ask those questions. And I think for at least for a lot of the people that I sit with, particularly men who are not inclined necessarily to ask for help or Hey, I'm going to get this done, I'm going to go it alone own. I'm not sure that it's always so clear what is true or what help is required.

Mark Nepo (00:13:34):

Oh, thank you. And this is the blessing because for me, this is how I learn.

 

Mel Robbins (00:13:43):

The Book of Awakening sits on both sides of our beds because we do not want to share a copy, although I am holding Chris's copy because I forgot to bring mine. And so I'm like, Chris, bring your, and it is a beautiful collection of daily reflections that were born out of a very challenging time in your life when you were dealing with a cancer diagnosis. So can you talk a little bit about that period of your life and what was happening that led to this series of essays?

 

Mark Nepo (00:14:18):

So when I was in my early thirties and I was in just finished graduate school and I was a young poet who I hope maybe if I worked really hard, I might write one or two poems that maybe would matter or be thought of as great. And then all of a sudden I was stricken with a rare formal lymphoma and everything was upended. And I was in the hospital and it was in my skull bone. It had grown to the size of a grapefruit. Then when someone told me I had cancer, I walked out that door. And that was the first life-changing moment because the door I had come in by was no longer there. Life before that appointment. There was no way back.

 

(00:15:18):

And now I was in the new world. And now in that moment, everything was difficult, fearful, and then I had to somehow everyone, and this is the kind of common passage everyone that all the spiritual traditions talk about, everyone will be dropped into the depth of life at some point. A lot of times we talk about it because difficult life, challenging things bring us there. But it's not just that. It's not deifying suffering, it's not just that. It could be wonder, it could be beauty, it could be being loved unconditionally for the first time. It could be all kinds of things, but it happened to be cancer for me. So in that journey, I had to drop under the pain, the fear, the worry, again, not to run from it, but to access something larger than me.

 

(00:16:25):

And this is maybe the difference between effort and grace, so that the effort is to be ready so that when grace comes, you receive it. And we can talk about grace very simply outside of religious connotations as the larger occurrence of life that we're always connected to. And if we're open to them, they will carry us. I'd never been through anything difficult. So I was terrified. I mean, every doctor or nurse I met, I said, I'm Mark, put me out. They thought put me out was my last name. And of course I couldn't be put out because this was my journey. They didn't in order to be ready in case I needed to go into surgery quickly, they couldn't give me anesthetic ahead of time so it wouldn't be used up. So I had to go through all these things pretty much awake or with local or things.

 

(00:17:26):

So there I was being challenged to feel it all, to face it all. So I had my first chemo treatment. I went into a Holiday Inn with my former wife and dear, dear friend, who were still dear friends after all these years. And the only medicine they gave me was oral. So I started getting sick. This was after I had a rib removed in my back, so two weeks earlier. So I'm getting sick and throwing up every half hour and feeling like it's got to stop. And I was feeling afraid in pain, not sure what's going on. And somehow, and this is what I mean about being ready for grace, all of a sudden the sun's starting to come up. And because I was open and maybe open because of all the pain exhausted, it occurred to me that somewhere nearby a baby's being born

 

(00:18:20):

And somewhere nearby, a couple's making love for the first time. And somewhere further down the road, a father and a son who haven't spoken years are finally sitting down and having coffee. And it was in that moment that I discovered that to be broken is no reason to see all things as broken. I was raised Jewish. I have a great tie to the Jewish heritage, but through all this, I became a student of all paths. And that's informed all my books, all my teaching, and because, and even all these years later, because the tumor in my brain vanished.

Mel Robbins (00:19:37):

Well, what I love about this book so much is first of all, I really appreciate the format that there is an essay every day that you can read that takes you five minutes or less, but that has you, as you say, drop into the depth of life. And I read a page and I drop in and feel very centered and connected to something larger. And I feel very present in the moment. And then I close it and feel very satisfied. And if I read it the next day, great. If I forget about it and I open it up a month later, great, there it is. Like an old friend to greet me. And I would love Mark to have you read one of your favorite essays to give the person a sense.

 

Mark Nepo (00:20:26):

So yeah, so this is one of my favorite passages. It's June 6th and it's called Two Monkeys Sleeping. We wandered into a corner of the Central Park Zoo, and there, despite the dozens of tourists pointing and tapping the glass, two monkeys were squinting on a purchase stone. To our surprise, they were both in deep sleep. Their dark heads bowed to each other, their small frames limp. What was amazing was that their delicate hands were touching their monkey fingers leaning into each other. It was clear that it was this small sustained touch that allowed them to sleep As long as they were touching, they could let go. I envied their trust and simplicity. There was none of the human pretense that independence, they clearly needed each other to experience peace. One stirred but didn't wake and the other in sleep kept their fingers touching. How deeply rewarding the life of touch each was drifting inwardly, dreaming whatever monkey's dream they looked like ancient travelers praying inside a place of rest made possible because they dared to stay connected. It was one of the most tender and humbling moments I've ever seen. Two aging monkeys weaving fingertips as if their touch alone kept them from oblivion. I pray for the courage to be as simple in asking for what I need.

 

Mel Robbins (00:22:05):

I read that and I can picture it, and then I immediately have a very small minded thought. How is it that Mark goes to the zoo and sees something so profound? And I see the other monkey's throwing poop and my stomach grumbling and I'm joking. But we're talking about the heart space and we're talking about the depth of life, and we're talking about kind of the noticing of what's right here. What do you hope that that essay stirs for somebody,

 

Mark Nepo (00:22:46):

The courage to stay connected both to ourselves, each other, and this larger mystery of life? One of the things that is so important, and so it's about first Chris, as you shared, we all have times when we're closed and we don't realize it. And so the first kind of practice is to open, but then the next practice is to connect because if I open my eyes, what's the point? If I don't see, if I open my heart and I don't love, what's the point of opening it? So we have to open and then we have to reach and receive while all the stuff is, while the poop is being thrown, because we talk about things in life, we separate them so we can make sense of them, but that's not how they exist in life. So we talk about suffering and we talk about beauty, but there's a great table, a geological, beautiful organized table of all the elements. But if you go and you cut into a mountain, they're all jumbled up and that's the way life is. And so when we're suffering is when we need to let beauty in while we're closed is when we need to find the quiet courage to open while we're afraid. And if I can't do it, I need to ask you for help. That's the whole point of friendship. One of the great, I think central paradoxes of life is that no one has been here, who's you? No one can see what you've seen or live your life and no one can do it alone. I think one of the modern psychological diseases is that we think we should do it alone. And so this sense which goes back to manifest destiny in America, no, we're interdependent. We're interdependent. No one can live my life for me, but I can't do it alone. And I know this from all the things I've been through.

 

Mel Robbins (00:25:11):

Why do you think these simple things can act like such a lifeline or open you up when otherwise in life you kind of are going through life feeling very closed off and lonely?

 

Mark Nepo (00:25:26):

Yeah, I think that one of the things I mentioned earlier, but it's really been a great teacher for me, is that great love and great suffering are the great openers. And there's two ways that human beings will basically learn. One is by willfully shedding and the other is by being broken open. And if you don't willfully shed, don't worry. You'll be broken open. And often it's a combination. And so words and phrases and expressions that matter are expressed in those openings.

 

(00:26:10):

And therefore whether it comes from me or you or a friend while you're struggling, those are the great openers. And then that's why it's important to have that heart space open. So when that comes, yes, A phrase, I had a dear friend and mentor who lived to be 102, Joel ies. He was a child of the Holocaust. He was a doctor, he was a watercolorist. I met him when he was 80 and thought, how much time do we have? And we had 22 years. And one sentence he said to me when I was just beginning years ago was such an opening for me. He said, you have a gift, honor it and let it be your teacher. And at a time when I wasn't sure I had a gift that was such an opening for me that really has stayed with me my whole life,

 

Mel Robbins (00:27:15):

What does that mean you think? Can you unpack that a little bit? You have a gift, honor it and let it be your teacher. What does that, because you also said everybody has a gift. Everybody has a gift. So how do you honor your gift? And how do you let that gift be your teacher?

 

Mark Nepo (00:27:29):

It could be you might have a gift for growing things. That's the call of your soul where we use it in the world. How are you going to grow things? Are you going to grow plants? Are you going to grow people? Are you going to grow children? What are you going to grow? And so this is where we apply it in the world. So all of this is a journey. So to honor, and this is a very, so the word honor, I love as you know from my writing, the origins of words, not because I'm a word geek, but because I've noticed that words erode over time, just like stone and wood. When we go back, more often than not, they're original or as close as we can get. Their original definitions are more whole and so much more helpful. So honor, I love the original definition of the word honor. Honor means to keep what is true in view.

 

(00:28:34):

I love that to keep what is true in view. So for everyone who's with us and listening, how can you personalize the practice of honoring? How do you keep what is true in view about what you know about yourself and your gifts? So I think that the first step for any of us is the word trust. Literally means follow your heart. So to follow our hearts in a daily way, what brings you more alive? What is heartening? Forget about whether it's a career or a project or just what do you do during the day or that brings you more alive and then do more of it. It could be staring at the sky or it could be making meals for friends, or it could be stamp collecting or it could be, I have a dear friend, that friend Paul who helped me through my cancer journey all those years ago.

 

(00:29:39):

And one of his great gifts, I mean he did all kinds of things to make a living, but he followed so beautifully when we were in our twenties, he created an art gallery and that brought him alive and it was a wonderful art gallery in Albany, New York. And then it changed. And the next thing I knew he was doing Sumi painting himself. And then another 10 years he was apprenticing with a foreign car mechanic. And he just followed what brought him. And it wasn't whether it was successful or not, it was just that what brought him alive shifted. I wouldn't even say, see, as long as we take the judgment out of it, not no longer works or didn't produce something. So one of the things that happens to all of us when we're young, you're spinning in recess and the teacher says, boy, you're so graceful, you'd be a good dancer. Or hear somebody singing la la over in the corner, you should be a singer. And now all of a sudden it gets in our heads from society and from, okay, what do I have to do to become a singer? Does that mean I have to take lessons? Does that mean I have to get a record recorded? Do I have to perform? Or if singing brings you alive, whether you sing well or not, you're a singer.

 

(00:31:18):

So how do we stay a verb and not become a noun? And this is at the heart of finding our own gift. I think it was Howard Thurman who said, we don't need, don't need people. Oh, I can't remember the exact quote. But the essence of it was we need people who are alive, not people who are good at what they do because if we're alive, we will be good at what we do.

 

Mel Robbins (00:31:47):

Well, one of the things that brings me alive is reading from your book. I always drop in. And so I want to read one to you and then I'd love to hear you kind of unpack this one. So this one is May 19th and it's called The bee Comes, the flower doesn't dream of the bee, it blossoms and the bee comes. Why am I crying, mark? Damn, you okay? At times in my life, I have wanted love so badly that I have reimagined myself reinvented who I am in an attempt to be more desirable or more deserving, only to discover again and again that it is the of my own soul that invites the natural process of love. To begin, I remember my very first tumble into love. I found such comfort there that like narcissus, I became lost in how everything other than my pain was reflected in her beauty. All the while I was abdicating my own worth, empowering her as the key to my sense of joy.

 

(00:33:05):

If I've learned anything through the years, it is that though we discover and experience joy with others, our capacity for joy is carried like a pot of nectar and our very own breast. I now believe that our deepest vocation is to root ourselves enough in this life that we can open our hearts to the light of experience and so bloom. For in blooming, we attract others in being so thoroughly who we are. An inner fragrance is released that calls others to eat of our nectar, and we are loved by friends and partners alike. It seems the very job of being is to ready us for such love. By attending our own inner growth, we uncannily become exactly who we are. And like the tulip whose blossom pedal is the exact shape of the bee, our self-actualization attracts a host of loving others more real than all our fantasies. In this way, the universe continues through the unexpected coming together of blossomed souls. So if you can give up the want of another and be who you are, and more often than not love will come at the precise moment. You are simply loving yourself. It's so beautiful.

 

Mark Nepo (00:34:33):

Oh, thank you. You read it beautifully.

 

Mel Robbins (00:34:35):

And you also give a prompt that helps you take it deeper.

Mark Nepo (00:35:09):

So one of the things about all my writing is that the flower doesn't dream of the bee, it blossoms and the bee comes. I didn't know that when I started that. And this is where over time I've discovered that the creative process and the introspective processor really the same thing. I just happened to write it down. And so there were so many lessons and one of them, which is again, the sense that we don't know. So for anyone by being authentic, we are given insights. And so when I start things, I am following what is real or troubling or wondrous or confusing for me. And then if I am true, I'm rewarded with an insight. And that of course is the insight of that whole entry. And I didn't know that. And then so now that becomes my teacher. And so this is how we can give our hearts attention. And what comes by being real gives us clues to our own gifts. And so one of the things that reveals about kind of like a law, if you will, of a spiritual law, and this often we see this with first love, where in high school you love me and which means you see something in me I haven't yet seen. And now my God, and I think you've got the switch to my light. I can't let you out of my sight, which actually is very self-centered, but nonetheless, I'm just like, oh my God, I'm head over heels. And what we learn over time is the greatest respectful gift we can give to someone who loves us is to own our own light. You saw it, but it's my switch and I see it new and it's your switch and we have to honor that in each other. And so this is one of the beautiful things is by being who we are, I mean we do have to love ourselves first.

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:19):

How though would you invite somebody who really wants to be more loving of themselves first and to find the switch?

 

Mark Nepo (00:37:28):

So with all the things we're talking about, I would always try to come down to small steps. And so one is can you identify and spend time with one thing you feel good about yourself?

 

Mel Robbins (00:37:48):

Can you give me an example?

 

Mark Nepo (00:37:49):

You're a good listener, you're a good storyteller. You're good at showing up when people need you. You're good at asking questions, you're good at finding the missing piece you're good at. It could be a thousand things, but something little. And then to pay attention, not just that you feel good when you do it, but what is it opening in you? What's going on? I always encourage people to use their own life as a case study, just like DNA, everything's embedded, all of embedded in DNA. Well in our heart, everything. When we touch something real, all of humanity is embedded in there. And so if I am good at listening to a friend, what does that tell me about my gift of listening? How do I then listen to myself? How do I take that listening and apply it to myself not to achieve anything, but to grow more intimate with who I am? And once we're intimate with who we are, we also, we enter our kinship with all things.

 

Mel Robbins (00:39:19):

Why does it begin with being intimate with yourself before you can be connected to everything else? Do you see what I mean?

 

Mark Nepo (00:39:27):

Yeah, so to speak that let me go out a little bit and all those traditions speak about it, but I really love how the Hindu tradition speaks about it. And so we all have heard the term namaste or namaste. I say namaste, that's the Brooklyn way of saying it. But what it means is I honor to keep what is true in view, the portion of universal spirit that resides in you. So in the West we call that soul. In the east they call it Ottman Buddha Nature. Christianity calls it the Holy Ghost. Judaism calls it Yahweh. I mean there's a thousand names. And so what I believe, and that's just my point on the circle in the elder council, is that just like the air in a bluebird house is a little portion of the sky. We call it the soul here, but we each carry a portion of universal spirit while we're here. So to become intimate with that allows us to be the inlet or the conduit between the world of spirit that's existed forever and go into the grocery store.

(00:41:55):

He didn't teach it, but by watching him. So at the end of his life he had had a stroke and was in the hospital and he could speak, but it was so difficult, he just didn't try. And so I found myself in a very busy, he didn't have a separate room, and I was in a very busy hospital setting and beeping and TVs and clattering, and all of a sudden I'm feeding him applesauce with a spoon and it was sad and beautiful and bittersweet and all of a sudden it was my whole life and that was put in a spoon in his mouth without hitting his teeth and he was getting the applesauce and I'm crying, and there we are. And again, going back to you can't prepare for these things, but because my heart was open, all of a sudden I was in a moment of wonder all of a sudden, not because I was looking for it, but because I held nothing back and I gave everything to that moment, I suddenly was in the moment of every adult child who ever fed a dying parent.

 

(00:43:15):

And I wasn't alone by being thoroughly who I was called to by love, not by some exercise or because, oh, I'll try this. Just all of a sudden I tripped into this amazing inexplicable space and it's changed how I think about resilience. I think another form of resilience is when we are thoroughly who we are, we are. So if I feel your pain, I am in suddenly the river of everyone who ever felt pain. If I feel your wonder, I'm in the river of everyone who ever felt wonder. And by being who we are, gaining access to the kinship of all things is an amazing form of resilience.

 

Chris Robbins (00:44:11):

Yeah, I'm still here. So yes, I have a passage April 26th. The way is hard but clear though it is the hardest. Going the way is clear. The naturalist and environmentalist Kevin Scribner tells us that salmon make their way upstream by bumping repeatedly block pathways until they find where the current is strongest. Somehow they know that the unimpeded rush of water means there is no obstacle there. And so they enter this opening fervently for though it is the hardest going the way is clear. The lesson here is as unnerving as it is helpful in facing both inner and outer adversities, the passage of truth comes at us with a powerful momentum because it is clear and unimpeded. And so where we sense the rush of truth is where we must give our all. As human beings, the blocked pathways of our journey can take on many forms.

 

(00:45:09):

And whether it be in avoiding conflict with others or in not taking the risk to love or in not accepting the call of spirit that would have us participate more fully in our days, it is often easier to butt up continually against these blocked pathways than to enter fervently the one passage that is so powerfully clear in this regard, salmon innately model a healthy persistence by showing us how to keep nosing for the unimpeded way. And once finding it how to work even harder to make it through. Some say it is easier for salmon since the power of their drive to end where they begin is not compromised by the endless considerations that often keep us from the truth. Still, it is the heart's capacity to rise one more time after falling down no matter how bruised that verifies that such a drive lives in us too. Like salmon our way depends not just on facing things head on, but in moving our whole being through.

 

Mark Nepo (00:46:18):

Thank you.

 

Chris Robbins (00:46:20):

I love that passage for a lot of reasons, but not the least of which because I love fish and fishing and all the above. But it's part of the origin story, if you will, in finding some of this work and your writing, is that I think that there were a lot of elements of what was going on in my life that were true, but they were all sort of in that confluence of water rushing, if you will, and me not seeking where the water was flowing the hardest, if you will. So when I read that, it just speaks to not only maybe some of the breakthroughs that I had for myself, but also just I'm often sharing this work with other men who are often working as hard as they can and feeling like they are trying to nose their way through the tough stuff. But it's not when you're in the middle of it, certainly for the salmon in the middle of the river, it's not always that. It's always that apparent and of course a lot easier to sit in the eddy and catch your breath than really go for it. And so this is a lot of what I find myself in conversation about is finding that at least discussing what could be true and then trying to inch ourselves towards that rushing water.

 

Mark Nepo (00:48:34):

Well, thank you. And I also feel it's important that in facing these openings that we can't do it alone and we don't have to do it all at once. I may find like, oh, there it is, but I don't know if I can do it today. But I think it is. And for me, I think my native, the language I was born with was metaphor. And so I've always seen things in looking at things and then worked to find out what the teaching is. And in that one, I think it also speaks to how we're awfully often humbled into letting go of where we think we're going.

 

Mel Robbins (00:49:26):

I wanted to dig more into that essay, Chris, because when you read it as the salmon, and if you've ever seen salmon swimming upstream and they're leaping up with the water leaping up and they're efforting their way, I think if I had to guess why there's so much emotion. It's that oftentimes where the water is rushing, you are actively resisting going there, whether it's ending the relationship or admitting to yourself that you're not happy or it is getting sober or it's deciding that you want to have a deeper spiritual experience, that you deeply

 

Mark Nepo (00:50:13):

Or all of the above,

 

Mel Robbins (00:50:17):

Just do 'em all at once, but that, and you feel the pull, but you spend for many of us years, if not decades, of your life bumping against the rock, feeling the pull and scared to turn toward it. And I think that's when you get this lesson and you get it over and over in life and you go, oh, of course. Oh, I wish I would've made that decision five years ago when I first felt the water rushing there, but I was scared. And then I feel like your tears, because you sit in circle with so many men on sole degree, your retreat, that you see the pain that we cause ourselves unknowingly because we are scared of that rushing water and scared of where it's leading. And so I'd love to hear is that, I mean I'm just throwing it into the circle here.

 

Chris Robbins (00:51:27):

I mean, I think the way you describe it is spot on. I mean if you take the salmon out of it, I often think about it like Superman must feel right before he breaks his face through the brick wall and sort of gets to the other side, if you will. But that is where the most force, or to what you're saying, Mel, just about resistance and how of course resistance pops up often and just fear and

 

Mel Robbins (00:52:02):

Well, if I go back to what you said, mark, the word trust is follow your heart. And a lot of times in life that rushing current deep down is where your heart is leading.

 

Mark Nepo (00:52:19):

And I think it also can be up here in many ways, that clear rush way. It can be admitting what is true. It can be admitting our limitations. It can be putting down a dream that turned out to be a cocoon for the dream we didn't see coming. And I also think that, I mean your compassion for those you work with is so touching and it challenges us that we can't rob anyone of their journey and all we can do is help them. I mean certainly if you fall down, I can help you up. If you're bleeding, I can get a bandaid or call the doctor. But inwardly, this is what compassion really means. The word literally means to be with. And so to be with you means I agree to feel your pain. I agree to feel your joy, but I can't. This is another of no one can live your life, but we can't do it alone. One of the things in our world that we suffer in the modern world and especially in the West, is we feel like we're entitled to a stress-free conflict-free sensation, free existence. Well, that's death if we're here. What we learn from is the full range of being human, which includes all of it. And so to follow your heart and trust that you'll feel things and you may get nicked and you may break a leg or you may break your heart, but the portion of universal spirit that you're blessed to carry is stronger and more whole and will carry you through it. And also the humbling thing to always ask for help,

 

Mel Robbins (00:54:28):

Is there something that you say to yourself when you are standing before one of those walls of fire in life,

 

Mark Nepo (00:54:35):

There are cloudy days, but the sun never stops shining. That doesn't mean that when you're under a cloud and that's real, it's wet, it's damp, you get cold and the sun doesn't stop shining. And we are challenged with the open heart to relate to both the old saying that is the glass half fuller, half empty? It's always both. I find that such a useless because then we spend time either trying to be in the full side or the, it's always both. And what we're talking about, the challenge of being fully here is how do we stay in relationship to both?

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:18):

I always say when people say that it's really about the glass and you can fill it with whatever you choose and you can empty it out which forces you to be in relation to what's in it.

 

Mark Nepo (00:55:31):

That's wonderful.

 

Mel Robbins (00:55:33):

If the person who's listening Mark literally is like, I just want to look at life the way that Mark does, where do you suggest that they begin?

 

Mark Nepo (00:55:44):

Well, the first thing is I encourage you not to look at life as I do, but to find your own direct connection with life and I'll meet you there. And this is so important because it is not about being like anybody else. We start by admitting what we don't know. We start by opening our heart and there's a practice, the word admit, and I love this because it has two meanings things admit means to declare or confess what is true, but it also means to let in and these things work together. The more that I admit what's true, the more I let in, the more more I'm capable of admitting what's true. So I invite people to start by admitting what is true.

 

Mel Robbins (00:56:45):

Mark, I love that you said that because one of the things that I believe and I say a lot is that all it takes to change your life for the better is to admit that how your life is right now are certain aspects of it doesn't make you particularly happy, that just declaring that truth allows in a different possibility.

 

Mark Nepo (00:57:13):

I think in one of my poems, I don't have it with me, but there's a line that the most powerful thing we can do when feeling powerless is admit what is true.