Episode: 405
The #1 Relationship Researchers in the World: 50 Years of Marriage & Love Advice in One Conversation
with Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman
The research-backed relationship tools every couple needs to hear.
In this episode, Mel sits down with Drs. John and Julie Gottman, the world’s leading relationship researchers, to reveal what really makes love last.
You’ll learn why the first 3 minutes of conflict matter, the 4 behaviors that quietly drive couples apart, and the small moments that make your partner feel loved — or alone.
Whether you’re married, dating, single, divorced, or feeling like roommates, this conversation gives you the tools to reconnect.
Listen on:
When your partner is upset, the world stops and you listen.
Dr. John Gottman
All Clips
Transcript
Mel Robbins (00:00:00):
Today, you and I are here with Dr. Julie and Dr. John Gottman. They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work.
Dr. John Gottman (00:00:09):
We had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes. We could predict with almost 90% accuracy, whether they would divorce or stay together and if they stayed together how happily married or unhappily married they would be.
Mel Robbins (00:00:24):
Wow. They're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:00:34):
So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Secondly is contempt. And contempt is the worst one we have. You're coming from a place of superiority looking down your nose at your partner. The third horseman is defensiveness and then there's-
Mel Robbins (00:01:02):
How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're losing interest in them.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:01:08):
I love you so, so, so much.
Dr. John Gottman (00:01:11):
It's nice to hear.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:01:13):
But.
Dr. John Gottman (00:01:13):
Oh, there's a but.
Mel Robbins (00:01:15):
I'm sorry. I'm laughing, but you two are adorable and we have all been in a relationship like that. Within three minutes flat, you can predict whether a couple is going to break up or still be together in six years. What are you looking for?
Dr. John Gottman (00:01:28):
If I was going to boil it down to one thing.
Mel Robbins (00:01:32):
Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited about this episode. I know what's coming. It is extraordinary. You're going to love this, but one thing that my team just showed me that I don't love so much, 51% of you who watch here on YouTube, you're not subscribers. So here's my request. Our goal as a team is to get that number to 40%. If the subscribe button is lit up, would you please just hit subscribe? It's free. It's the best way to say, "Hey, thanks everybody. Thanks for putting out free content here on YouTube for me. Thanks for all the world-renowned experts that are helping me improve my life. I appreciate you doing that and that way you also won't miss a thing. Thank you for doing that for us. We love you and you're going to love this episode, so let's jump into it. Please help me welcome the extraordinary Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:02:20):
Oh, we're so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you.
Mel Robbins (00:02:22):
Oh, honor's mine. Honor is mine. I would love to have you start by just thinking about the thousands of couples that you have researched and this extraordinary body of work that spans 50 years and speak to the person who is listening right now and share what might change about their relationships if they really take to heart all of this research and wisdom and they apply it as soon as they're done listening.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:02:57):
Beautiful. I think two things I would say that really change. One is that hopefully conflict, which is absolutely normal in every relationship, becomes more calm, more gentle and more constructive, also more compassionate because the real theme of conflict is to understand your partner better. It's not to tear your partner down. It's to really get inside their world and understand where they're coming from. So hopefully that might take place after listening to your beautiful show. And I would say secondly, maybe they do more to expres gratitude. Maybe they ask more questions of their partner to really understand where their partner is at here and now internally. They may have known them when they were first dating, knew that world, but people evolve and change. So who are they now? Asking questions draws that out.
Dr. John Gottman (00:04:11):
Yeah, I would say that in all the 54 years of studying couples, my friend
Dr. John Gottman (00:04:19):
Bob Levinson and I started this research way back then and neither of us had a clue about what makes relationships work. We went from one disaster to another. And if I was going to boil it down to one thing, I have this invention that I keep in my back pocket and it's a little notebook and I keep it there all the time. And if Julie utters the four terrifying words, we need to talk. I get out my notebook very slowly so I can delay my reaction. I get out my pen very slowly and I open the book up very slowly and then I say, okay, baby, talk to me. What's on your mind? What's on your heart? And I write down what she's saying. And the more defensive I feel, the more I take notes and slower down.
(00:05:19):
Because I think the one thing we've discovered is that the masters of relationships, the ones who are happy and stay together really seem to have a motto that when your partner's upset about anything, the world stops and you listen. And this is my way of listening, taking notes and doing it very slowly so I can calm down and not react quickly by saying something I'll regret later
Mel Robbins (00:05:50):
On. I want to just pause. It's
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:05:53):
Key.
Mel Robbins (00:05:54):
You know what's adorable about you two? And if you're listening, I'm just going to describe it if you're watching this episode you will have already seen it, is that you both keep turning toward one another and smiling and you have this very warm, loving gaze at one another as the other is talking.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:06:21):
How can you not let this? This is beautiful.
Mel Robbins (00:06:25):
And you also are holding hands and there's a physical touch connection, which is extremely noticeable because you don't see it all that often in couples. And I wanted to just unpack the genius of your response, Dr. Gottman, to those four terrifying words we need to talk, which I'm also realizing sometimes I don't give Chris the grace of preparing him for the fact that I'm about to blast at him like a volcano. But what I loved because I do think there is something very intentional about what you just described that as you're imagining Dr. Gottman and he leaned forward and he reached into his back pocket and he pulled out a notebook that's like the size of a three by five card and you opened it up slowly and then you said you started to write and that is your way of listening, but it's so important to also point out as you're hearing this, that you are also managing your reaction in the middle of what could become an argument or conflict.
(00:07:45):
Yeah.
Dr. John Gottman (00:07:45):
Delay is the way of engaging the frontal lobes instead of reacting direct from your amygdala, which is terror and defensiveness comes out. So when you engage the brain, the thinking brain, then you can be a little less defensive.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:08:05):
Yeah. Let me add, you can be less physiologically aroused. One of the things that we found in our research is that oftentimes people can be sitting as calmly as John and I are right now having a conflict, but one of their heart rates will be over a hundred beats a minute and they've gone into fight or flight, which means blood has left this prefrontal cortex, moved back into the motor cortex. They cannot think clearly, listen clearly, problem solve and be creative. It's impossible because this is offline. So by John pulling out that notebook very slowly, there's a couple of ways it's wonderful. For one, it keeps you calm. It keeps you more focused on kind of the cognitive element of what I'm saying as opposed to, did he? Did she really say that? Or for me, what it tells me is that, gosh, he's going to take me seriously.
(00:09:19):
He's not going to be thinking about, okay, when do I get the oil changed in the car? I can tell that he's listening because he is taking notes and that's meaningful for me. It helps me to feel his presence and it's a wonderful thing for all of you to do as well.
Mel Robbins (00:09:39):
I love that. And I could imagine Dr. Gottman reaching ... Hold on, let me get my notebook out of my pocket here.
Mel Robbins (00:09:47):
You study love in a lab. What does that mean? For the person that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships, what do you do?
Dr. John Gottman (00:10:00):
Yeah. So Julie and I, after we first met, we designed this apartment where 130 newlywed couples just a couple of months after the wedding would spend 24 hours, cameras rolling, no instructions. They have an opportunity to eat together, clean up together, read the newspaper, watch TV, whatever they want to do and the cameras are just rolling. And while they're walking around, we're measuring their heart rate, they're measuring all kinds of physiological measures. Every time they urinate, we take a sample and measure stress hormones and then we take blood from them the next day and look at the immune system and stress hormones in the immune system. So we're just kind of watching couples and it turns out that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab. So the prediction is really 94% accurate at predicting the future.
Mel Robbins (00:11:08):
So you could predict with 94% accuracy who's going to make it and who wasn't?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:11:12):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:11:13):
This is like the original reality TV. It sounds like you guys invented the format.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:11:17):
That's right. Let me add also that this brilliant man over here created a fantastic system for codifying emotions. That means looking at the face, looking at the movements of the body, looking at the words, the tone of voice, the eye gaze and assessing from that, what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak? Then what's the other individual going to respond with? What kind of feeling is that? So we call that SPAF, specific affect, which means emotion, specific affect coding. And that in itself tells us a huge amount about the dynamic. Who's being belligerent? Who's being domineering? Who is being subordinate? Who's being kind? Who's trying to make a repair if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings from-
Dr. John Gottman (00:12:22):
Or using humor as a way to wind things down. Humor turns out to be very important.
Mel Robbins (00:12:28):
Right. Why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:12:34):
Because we fight all the time. We are human beings. One of the things, Mel, that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is how come people are mean to each other?
(00:12:49):
Why is that? What's evil? What does that even mean? What I've really understood from lots of archeological reading and so on is that people have aggression. They've also got altruism. They can be very, very kind, but all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us. So what happens with it? Typically, it goes to the person that's closest to us because that person we assume is not going to abandon us is not going to run away. They're going to be there to listen to us. And so we have personality differences from our partner, lifestyle preference, differences from our partner. Everybody has those and 69% of the issues couples struggle with are perpetual conflicts. They never ever go away.
Dr. John Gottman (00:13:50):
That was a big surprise to us.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:13:52):
Yeah. So they just keep coming up over and over and over again in some different format through the side door. So what do you do with that? Well, people can avoid those, sweep them under the rug, but they don't have conflict, but they grow more distant typically over time or they can learn to really talk in a way that's calm, little bit of emotion, maybe a little more intellectual, trying to solve the problem very fast. We call those validators. And then there's me. I'm a volatile like maybe you are and we love to explode. We love to be passionate about expressing our emotion.
Dr. John Gottman (00:14:42):
And I'm a conflict avoider.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:14:44):
It's a great combo. So a 30 figured it out over time.
Mel Robbins (00:14:51):
We're going to get into these different types, but before we do, I want to just talk a little bit about the research because it's so fascinating. Sure. You've already mentioned that by observing a couple in this apartment love lab, you could predict with 94% accuracy whether or not they were going to be together in six years. Yes, that's
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:15:14):
Correct.
Mel Robbins (00:15:14):
And we're going to get into what you were looking at that really was the signal that they're not going to make it.
Mel Robbins (00:15:21):
But there's also interesting research that you have around how the first three minutes of a fight predict everything. Let's hear about that.
Dr. John Gottman (00:15:32):
Bob and I found that if we had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes, we could predict with almost 90% accuracy, whether they would divorce or stay together and if they stayed together how happily married or unhappily married they would be. But then somebody in my lab, Civil Career, said, "What if we lop off the data from the last three minutes and we only have 12 minutes? What's the prediction like with only 12 minutes of data?" And it was just fine. And she said, "Well, let's lop off another three minutes." And it was just fine. She got down to the first three minutes and we were still predicting the future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes because couples who really are going to wind up divorced or together unhappily start off the conversation really differently from couples who are, we call the masters of relationship.
(00:16:34):
That beginning is so important.
Mel Robbins (00:16:37):
Now I'm like, okay, well, what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup versus the beginning that doesn't?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:16:44):
I have an idea. Let's role play it.
Mel Robbins (00:16:46):
Let's do it.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:16:47):
Let's role play it. Sure. All right. So this is predictive of going down.
Dr. John Gottman (00:16:53):
Yeah. Well, so I wanted to talk to you about this. I really think that you're really ruining this marriage and it's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive compulsive
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:06):
Because- Wait a minute. Look at a
Dr. John Gottman (00:17:07):
Minute. Let me finish.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:09):
I'm not going to let you finish. You're such a slob that I can't even walk through
Dr. John Gottman (00:17:15):
The living room. I am charmingly- Sloppy. Sloppy. But you are really a nut. I mean, you need therapy. You really do. I mean, everything has to be perfect for you. Everything's got to be perfect.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:29):
Well, that's right. And I need
Dr. John Gottman (00:17:31):
To
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:32):
Just to live with
Dr. John Gottman (00:17:33):
You. I don't
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:33):
Even want
Dr. John Gottman (00:17:34):
To talk about this anymore.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:35):
All
Mel Robbins (00:17:35):
Right. I feel like I now know what it's like to be a marriage therapist
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:17:42):
Watching the two of you. Oh, you ain't seen nothing. That could be worse. Wow. I once had somebody who was so upset so flooded and she was all of about four foot 10 and her husband was 6'5" and had cheated on her, et cetera. So I tried to calm her down. She finally sat down on the couch and my couch was a beautiful red, leather, gorgeous couch. When she left, there were scratch marks on the couch.
Mel Robbins (00:18:18):
I bet her heart rate was up. I bet it was. So unpack what was happening in that because I think that we've all experienced those kinds of fights, whether it's about the relationship or now you're arguing about, well, you're giving the kid too much money and da, da, da, and you're overparenting and aiming it. What was happening in that fight you just had? So
Dr. John Gottman (00:18:42):
I was describing the problem in terms of her personality being deficient, that there was something wrong with her. It was all her fault.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:18:52):
So you, you, you, you. That's all he was saying. And of course I got defensive and I counterattacked. That's a classic form of defensiveness. You counterattack. So then I moved into you, you, you, you, and it was all about character flaws, the slob. That's right. And all
Dr. John Gottman (00:19:17):
I'm doing is trying to give her feedback about what's wrong with her so she can improve because I'm pretty much perfect as far as I can tell.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:19:24):
See this? It's a halo. It's
Dr. John Gottman (00:19:26):
A halo. It's not a yamaka. It's a halo that God gave me. So I'm always innocent and it's always her fault. That's the way the disasters argue.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:19:36):
And notice, did you see any listening there?
Mel Robbins (00:19:40):
No.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:19:41):
Zero listening, right? Zero. That's right. So people were talking over each other and immediately coming up with their rebuke before even hearing the last words of their sentence of the partner.
Dr. John Gottman (00:19:56):
And right away, persuasion enters. I'm trying to persuade her that I'm right and she's wrong. And I haven't even listened to what her concerns are.
Mel Robbins (00:20:07):
The other thing that happened is the volume started getting higher and higher and higher because neither one of you were listening and you're both blaming and now you're trying to talk over one another. Exactly. And then you both went like, huh.
Dr. John Gottman (00:20:25):
And if I'm physiologically flooded, I think all I need to do is repeat myself louder in order to be more persuasive. That's the way I reason when I'm flooded.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:20:39):
63 times later, have I listened? No.
Mel Robbins (00:20:43):
What does a positive argument look like?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:20:48):
Okay, let's role model that. We can use the same talk.
Dr. John Gottman (00:20:52):
Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:20:53):
Okay. So what's going on, honey?
Dr. John Gottman (00:20:56):
Well, I'm kind of thinking that I can't do anything right. I've tried being neater, more tidy, cleaning things up and it's never good enough for you. It feels like that. I can't satisfy you. It's just like I kind of give up. What am I supposed to do to make you happy?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:21:19):
Oh God, that sounds actually like a pretty terrible feeling.
Dr. John Gottman (00:21:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:21:24):
So you're really frustrated because there's nothing you can do that you feel is good enough. Is that right? Yeah. Am I making you feel that way?
Dr. John Gottman (00:21:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:21:34):
Oh dear. What am I doing that leads to you feeling that way? Because I don't want you to feel that way. I don't want to treat you
Dr. John Gottman (00:21:42):
That way. Well, for example, you asked me to clean up the kitchen. So I clean it up and it doesn't meet your standards. So I don't even know what your standards are. Do
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:21:55):
You want me to tell you what they are? Probably not.
Dr. John Gottman (00:21:57):
Well, no, that would help.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:21:58):
Would it? I
Dr. John Gottman (00:21:59):
Really would like to know. Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:00):
Oh gosh. Because
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:01):
I think I've done it just fine and then you're disappointed.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:05):
I
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:06):
Just don't get it.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:08):
I see. Well, I tell you what, what would make a huge difference for me is after washing-
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:16):
Let me write this down.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:17):
Okay. That's a great idea. Get out your notebook.
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:21):
Yeah. Hang on a minute.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:25):
Okay.
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:26):
Let me just breathe a little bit. Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:29):
I promise I won't hurt your feelings. Oh, that's okay. After washing the dishes, it would be wonderful if you would wipe down the counters. Just get all those crumbs into the sink and then rinse them down the sink. That's really all I need just to have counters that are clean. That would make a huge difference for me.
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:55):
Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:22:56):
It would be great.
Dr. John Gottman (00:22:57):
I really can't tell when the counter is clean or not, because you got this pattern of-
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:05):
Colors.
Dr. John Gottman (00:23:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:07):
This is true. This is why I chose a counter with brown in it. It would disguise all of your work. Just
Dr. John Gottman (00:23:15):
Wipe it down really well.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:17):
Just wipe it.
Dr. John Gottman (00:23:17):
Yeah. Just
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:18):
Wipe it. That's all you have to do.
Dr. John Gottman (00:23:20):
All right. All right. I can do
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:22):
That. Would
Dr. John Gottman (00:23:22):
You mind doing that? I'll do that.
Mel Robbins (00:23:24):
Yay. Oh my God. I love you too. That
Dr. John Gottman (00:23:28):
Makes sense.
Mel Robbins (00:23:30):
You are adorable.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:32):
We're okay.
Mel Robbins (00:23:34):
Can you explain what just happened in that conflict?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:23:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Easy. So it started in a perfect way, which was John bringing up that he's feeling bad about an interaction of ours. But notice he's not saying, "You're a schmuck," and that's why I feel bad. He's saying, "I feel like I can't do anything right." So is you in there? No. He is having that feeling, which pulls on my heart, Mel. He's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like and that feeling I'm translating into, oh God, he's feeling hopeless. He's feeling despair. I don't want him to feel that way, but here's the kicker. I want to understand what's making him feel that way. So instead of just responding with just a comment, I ask a question to try to understand, "Tell me more. Tell me more because it's sort of like if something pretty smelly is bubbling up from the earth, I want to know what's under the earth, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him." So I ask him a question and that gives me information about, "Oh, that's what's happening inside.
(00:25:15):
That's something that we can change. It leads to a solution."
Mel Robbins (00:25:20):
I love this example and I'm going to tell you why I personally know that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight and when I'm volcanoing and he's turtling, when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something, it would literally be, "Nothing's ever good enough for you. " And I think that's a very common way that people then bark at each other. And it's very different to say, "Well, nothing's good enough for you. I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you. " Versus what you just taught us, which is instead of accusing it's you, I feel that no matter what I do, it's never enough. And you're right, as soon as Chris started saying that to me, I immediately feel like a monster and then I want to know, okay, well, what exactly? I'm sorry.
(00:26:23):
And I can see why this works.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:26:25):
Sure.
Mel Robbins (00:26:25):
Right. If couples fight the first way, yelling at each other, it's never enough for you. Find door slams, go into your corners. Is there hope?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:26:37):
Sure, of course. The thing is this, when in our lab we saw couples who were going down the road of distress, remember they weren't getting any intervention. They weren't reading anything. They weren't listening to fabulous podcasts like yours. They weren't trying to learn a different manner of relating to one another. So without intervention, they're falling back on old habits on what they learned at the feet of their parents or caretakers, which didn't work. So nobody takes relationships 101 in high school. You got to learn different ways of talking to one another.
Mel Robbins (00:27:24):
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Mel Robbins (00:28:28):
When somebody says to you, "Oh, we never fight." What do you think?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:28:35):
I think there are probably conflict avoiders and I think, oh dear, we've got to help this couple surface unearth. The differences, the things that are irritating, annoying, because if you hold them inside and you don't bring them up, after a while they accumulate and then you may end up with an eruption, which doesn't help anybody.
Dr. John Gottman (00:29:07):
One thing that can happen, we saw in this study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with the young children and they spent less than 10% of an evening in the same room. They talked to each other an average of 35 minutes a week and mostly what they talked about was errands. Who's going to do what, when? So they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship, they ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure. Their lives had devolved into this infinite to- do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had. So they lived life in parallel. He goes to work, she goes to work. They come home They're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying, "God, we used to have so much fun and we don't have any anymore.
(00:30:10):
We're just kind of becoming drudges." They don't say that to one another.
Mel Robbins (00:30:14):
They say roommates.
Dr. John Gottman (00:30:16):
They stay roommates. They avoid conflict. They avoid saying how lonely they are, how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship.
Mel Robbins (00:30:27):
If the person listening is thinking, "Well, that's me, because I can think of periods of Chris in my marriage where we have three kids who are now all in their 20s, but when they were little, that was us.
Dr. John Gottman (00:30:40):
That was you.
Mel Robbins (00:30:41):
We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store and that no matter what I do, it's never enough.
Dr. John Gottman (00:30:49):
Yeah. You have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship, build in times that you can count on having your partner's ears. We have an annual honeymoon that we do and for 27 years we've gone to the same bed and breakfast and took our kayak and we spend two weeks asking each other three questions. What sucked about last year? What did you hate about last year? What did you love about last year and what do you want next year to be like? So we have that ritual where we know we can connect and it's romantic and it's fun and we kayak and we hike and it's always magic.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:31:34):
Let me point out though what John is talking about, especially for really busy two career couples are those rituals of connection, but they don't have to be great big broadcasts. They can be something so simple like, how do you say good morning first thing when you wake up? How do you say goodnight? And you look forward to that. What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in? How about a date night? I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it? So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, they're right beside me. They're right there, even though they're in a different office.
Mel Robbins (00:32:29):
I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment as the research suggests, which I think most couples are both probably working because of the reality of how expensive life is and coming and going and that only 35 minutes a week in the ... I mean, that's just sad.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:32:48):
Can you imagine?
Mel Robbins (00:32:49):
And I appreciate the small thing. Could you create something first thing in the morning? Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night? One of the things that I remember that made a big difference, and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening, is since logistics was the reality and it was also the source of all of our conflict. The one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting. Now that doesn't exactly sound like a date night, but it became a consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned and helped us coordinate the logistics at one point. Beautiful.
Dr. John Gottman (00:33:32):
You were a team.
Mel Robbins (00:33:33):
Yes. And to this day we do it.
Dr. John Gottman (00:33:37):
That's great.
Mel Robbins (00:33:38):
And it's just the smallest of things. And the other thing that I have to give a huge shout out to Chris that he does that makes a big difference for me is he puts little notes just kind of like the notebook you have. He'll rip out a page and just put, I love you and I'll open up my eyeglass case in the middle of the day. And there it is. Beautiful. Or I'll open up my wallet and there it is. And I had no idea that he had done that. And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you, even though I may not be standing
Dr. John Gottman (00:34:12):
Next to you. Yeah. A consistent research finding is that you cannot just focus on conflict as a therapist. You have to work on friendship and intimacy, romance, passion, play, and fun. You have to work on all of that together. It's not enough to just make conflict better. You really have to bring the two souls together in a way that it brings joy into the relationship.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:34:42):
Let me just mention something about your meeting, which is fabulous doing that as a ritual of connection. One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting, which often takes place on Sundays. We call it the state of the union. And so what we suggest is that first you begin with gratitude. You think of something your partner has done that maybe you haven't yet thanked them for and you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that. So often we take our partners for granted, especially after years of being together. So all of us, however, still need to be seen. We need to be appreciated. And so starting with that is lovely. And then in the middle piece, maybe there is a complaint that you have you haven't talked about, or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need to process, clear the air about that, try and understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time.
(00:35:57):
And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude. I mean, there's nothing better than hearing gratitude as a sign that, look, you're visible, you're important to me. I see who you are. I love what you do and I want you to know I recognize you and you're beautiful.
Dr. John Gottman (00:36:28):
And a great question to end the meeting with is, what can I do next week to make you feel loved?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:36:35):
Is that the best question in the world? I know.
Mel Robbins (00:36:37):
I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict.
Mel Robbins (00:36:46):
And there are four horsemen of the apocalypse in your relationship. What are they?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:36:52):
Okay. So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. You're so selfish, you're so lazy, you're so inconsiderate, thoughtless, whatever. So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner, that's criticism. Secondly is contempt. And contempt is the worst one we have. Contempt is like criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority looking down your nose at your partner and you're sneering a little bit. You've got a look of disgust maybe on your face. There's scorn. There's mockery. Sometimes sarcasm is contempt and contempt is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying, and I'll fine tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict for 15 minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they're going to have in the next four years because it is sulphuric acid for the immune system.
(00:38:17):
Yeah, it's a big deal. The third horseman is defensiveness. We all love defensiveness. Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counterattack as we described or whining.
Dr. John Gottman (00:38:42):
He is a victim.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:38:42):
Oh, I did too clean the kitchen. What do you mean? Okay. I love whining. It's great. And then they're stonewalling and stonewalling is completely shutting down, but it's not shutting down for just a few seconds to come up with the right phrase. It's shutting down completely for minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time. And what brilliant John here and his colleague, Bob Levinson, discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight. Their heart rates were often over a hundred beats a minute as they sat there. And
Dr. John Gottman (00:39:28):
They started stonewalling.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:39:29):
And they started stonewalling in order to go inside and try and soothe themselves because being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful, makes you sick.
Dr. John Gottman (00:39:44):
So that turtle thing that Chris does, right? Yes. And he's just starting to calm himself down, but to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care.
Mel Robbins (00:39:53):
Correct.
Dr. John Gottman (00:39:54):
And he's
Mel Robbins (00:39:55):
Tuned out. You can't reach out. I'm yelling. I'm yelling because he's not responding.
Dr. John Gottman (00:39:59):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:40:00):
And it makes it worse. Yes, I can see
Dr. John Gottman (00:40:02):
That. Well, the other thing is that Bob and I also, as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples who didn't do the four horsemen, but when they talked about the events of the day, there was no connection and they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day. So it's not that they had all this negative stuff. They didn't have very much positivity, not very much interest in one another, not very much shared humor or affection. And those couples divorced an average of 16 years after the wedding. They last longer, but it's still disaster.
Mel Robbins (00:40:44):
I would love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's listening right now, what do you mean by flooding? So if somebody's never heard this term and they're not quite ... I think it's kind of obvious if you're the stonewalling or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle or you're a volcano like me, but can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding and what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:41:28):
Sure, sure. So first of all, there is no correlation between personality type and flooding. Anybody can get flooded anybody, first of all.
Mel Robbins (00:41:42):
And what does that mean when you use that term flooded?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:41:44):
Okay. So what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber tooth tiger. So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like on because it feels like an attack and it's a dangerous attack, it's threatening. It sets off this fight or flight response. And so men who experience this and get flooded are going to look like this. They give themselves permission to look away, to look away, but a female doesn't typically. And here's why because you know as women from this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, to be sensitive to others' feelings. So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away. So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this.
Mel Robbins (00:43:02):
And you're just kind of staring ...
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:43:05):
Nobody's home.
Mel Robbins (00:43:06):
No one's home.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:43:07):
Nobody's home. Blank
Mel Robbins (00:43:08):
Face.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:43:08):
That's right. You may be meeting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home. You've taken yourself out.
Mel Robbins (00:43:17):
I just realized my daughter does that. When I get scary that she-
Dr. John Gottman (00:43:26):
A deer in the headlights.
Mel Robbins (00:43:27):
Yes, doesn't know what to do.
Dr. John Gottman (00:43:28):
That's
Mel Robbins (00:43:29):
Right. Yeah. Okay. That was very helpful because you're right. And I know that this is all based on your research that for a lot of men, it's the crossed arms, it's the looking away, it's the walking out of the room or going to make a drink as you're walking following them, yelling at them. Yes.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:43:49):
Yeah.
Dr. John Gottman (00:43:50):
And it feels kind of awful in your body. It's almost like having a panic attack. The breathing is more shallow and more rapid and it really feels like there's no way to win here. I mean, you just have to escape.
Mel Robbins (00:44:09):
Yes, I can see that and you're escaping your body or the room.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:44:13):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:44:15):
That was super helpful. Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:44:22):
Okay.
Mel Robbins (00:44:22):
How is criticism defined in the research? And I'd love to have you role play example and teach us how we can shift out of it when we're in the middle of it.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:44:38):
Let me just mention that the shifting that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair. Okay. So making a repair during a conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better. Okay. Okay. So again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. That's what it is. So let
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:10):
Me start.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:45:10):
Okay, go ahead.
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:12):
I've been meaning to talk to you because I think that I have something to teach you. What do
Mel Robbins (00:45:21):
You mean?
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:22):
Well, no, I noticed that you kind of get upset when the house is in some kind of disarray and I don't have that problem. I can concentrate really well whatever's going on around me. So I can kind of teach you to focus your mind more because I think your mind is kind of weak. I
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:45:43):
Think
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:43):
Your mind is not strong.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:45:44):
You think my mind is weak?
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:47):
Yeah. I think you have a weak mind and I can help you-
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:45:50):
Honey, strengthen your mind. Not as much as I am. You did.
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:55):
What?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:45:56):
I don't have a weak mind. What are you talking about?
Dr. John Gottman (00:45:58):
Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to you. I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind so it's more like my mind.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:46:06):
I tell you what, go help the dog. Okay. Not me. Okay. So that's criticism. All right, got it. Let's show them back here. It's the
Dr. John Gottman (00:46:15):
Antidote for each, of
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:46:16):
Course. Yeah. So how do I do that? So I'll make a repair.
Dr. John Gottman (00:46:20):
Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:46:20):
Okay. Okay. So why don't you pick up?
Dr. John Gottman (00:46:23):
Yeah. Like I was saying, I really can help you focus your mind better and be much more like me.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:46:34):
Honey?
Dr. John Gottman (00:46:35):
Yeah. I
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:46:36):
Need to tell you I'm really feeling defensive right now. You are? I don't want to be defensive, but I feel that way. The way that you're describing me feels to me like a put down.
Dr. John Gottman (00:46:51):
Oh.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:46:51):
Can you say what you want to say in diferent words?
Dr. John Gottman (00:46:58):
Well, okay. I think it'd be great if even when there were a lot of books around and papers around that you were okay with that. You didn't get upset.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:47:13):
Tall order. Well, I tell you what, I hear you and I know that I probably come across as an ag sometimes. Yeah. I'm sure I do.
Dr. John Gottman (00:47:28):
I would say that. Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:47:29):
Yeah, I bet you would. But I think I can spend some of the time feeling comfortable with everything scattered around. However, I think you probably know me well enough to understand that when my environment feels chaotic just to me, it may not be to you, but it is to me, then I get all discombobulated inside. I feel really disorganized. And so all the papers and so on contribute, unfortunately, to my having that feeling. I wish I wasn't like that, but I am.
Dr. John Gottman (00:48:14):
Because I think that a house ought to be a little bit messy to be comfortable.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:19):
Yeah, I know you do.
Dr. John Gottman (00:48:21):
My mom used to clean the place within an inch of its life.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:27):
I love your mom.
Dr. John Gottman (00:48:28):
And she put plastic on all the furniture.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:30):
She was crazy. That's true. I remember.
Dr. John Gottman (00:48:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:33):
Yeah. Okay. Well, you don't have to sit on plastic, okay? It's okay. Yeah. All right.
Mel Robbins (00:48:40):
Beautiful. And I saw you repaired by using I.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:44):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:48:45):
I feel.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:46):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:48:47):
I feel defensive. So when you're getting criticized saying, "I feel defensive
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:51):
Right now." Instead of going defensive instead of counterattacking.
Mel Robbins (00:48:57):
Yes. Or stop criticizing me.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:48:59):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Mel Robbins (00:49:01):
I feel defensive. That's the repair for criticism. Yep. Got it. Beautiful. Let's move on to contempt. Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:49:09):
You want to define that one, honey?
Dr. John Gottman (00:49:11):
Yeah.
Dr. John Gottman (00:49:12):
Contempt has this air of superiority. I'm better than you.
Mel Robbins (00:49:17):
Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like and how it is different than criticism?
Dr. John Gottman (00:49:28):
You can't do anything right, can you?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:49:31):
What are you talking about?
Dr. John Gottman (00:49:33):
I mean, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money. You spend too much money on clothes. So what? So what? Well, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house and you're ruining the whole thing. You just spent it.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:49:49):
I'm ruining the whole thing.
Dr. John Gottman (00:49:51):
Right. Right.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:49:52):
How dare you? You just went out and bought a Porsche for God's sakes and I'm reading it. I
Dr. John Gottman (00:49:57):
Need that for my work.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:50:01):
I
Dr. John Gottman (00:50:01):
Wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:50:04):
To take it back. I need to take it back. Okay. So that's one example.
Mel Robbins (00:50:08):
So it's judgment,
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:50:10):
But from a place of superiority.
Mel Robbins (00:50:14):
What about the eye rolling?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:50:17):
I have another example of other examples. You get to give another one. With eye rolling and the cheap.
Dr. John Gottman (00:50:24):
Well, I was thinking of an example that one of our therapists talked about seeing this couple and she was being contemptuous and he said, "Do you think you're better than me? " And she said, "Better than I.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:50:44):
" Boom. Wow. Isn't that a killer? Correct their grammar. That's a great way to be contemptuous. Ouch.
Mel Robbins (00:50:56):
I have a couple in my life that's uncomfortable to be around because as one person's talking, the other one is rolling their
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:51:03):
Eyes. That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:51:04):
As they leave the room, they complain about them. And why is contempt the most harmful? And let's start there.
Dr. John Gottman (00:51:17):
It's really a murder attempt at the person's sense of self. And the Jewish Talmud talks about it as murder. You're destroying the other person's sense of self and you're saying you are worthless and that's the worst attack. It's not just something you do that I don't like, but I don't like you.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:51:45):
Right. I call it value you. I call it character assassination. That's what it is.
Mel Robbins (00:51:51):
And do people that are contemptuous actually, are they able to recognize it?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:51:57):
Not always. Usually the listener is the one who recognizes it. The other person usually has a pretty heavy sense of entitlement that they deserve to say that. But let me also add something about why it's so destructive that a lot of people don't really think about and acknowledge, but none of us got parented perfectly. None of us got taught with absolute appreciation in school. So all of us have at base, at least a part of ourselves that's insecure, that needs to be loved, that needs to be cared about. And some people like to say that that's immature or you're just not a grownup. And I would like to say to them, "No, that's wrong." We all have that inside ourselves. We don't lose that core of insecurity and the need to be looked at with care, with love, with understanding, to be spoken to with respect, even admiration.
(00:53:21):
None of us lose that. We just add layers on top of it as we grow older, but it's still inside there and it can still get hit if somebody expresses contempt.
Mel Robbins (00:53:36):
That makes a lot of sense. So if you're the one that's getting stepped on and demeaned and interrupted and corrected by your partner, how do you repair this?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:53:49):
Okay. So here's how I would repair it. Let's say he's just been contemptuous. So John, there's no way that I can hear what you're saying right now because I feel so insulted by what you're saying. I don't know if that's your intention or not, but I feel like shrinking away. I want to just disappear.
Dr. John Gottman (00:54:21):
I don't want that.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:54:22):
Because I feel really hurt by what you're saying. So I wish you would flip what you just said on its head and tell me what you do want or you do like rather than this wave of negativity I'm getting.
Dr. John Gottman (00:54:44):
I feel like I'm judging you.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:54:47):
Big time.
Dr. John Gottman (00:54:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:54:48):
Yeah.
Dr. John Gottman (00:54:49):
Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:54:50):
That's what it looks like.
Mel Robbins (00:54:52):
And when you get somebody that says, "I am judging you. " Now you're realizing, okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:54:57):
Okay. Well, that's okay. So let's say I am-
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:01):
I'm just trying to give you feedback.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:55:04):
Honey, the effect of the feedback and the way that you're giving it to me pushes me away. It makes me want to run away from you because it hurts so much. Feedback I can hear if you're telling me what you do want,
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:22):
Not
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:55:22):
What you don't
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:23):
Or
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:55:24):
What you don't like.
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:25):
Good point.
Mel Robbins (00:55:29):
Amazingly helpful. I love that I feel insulted. I feel hurt because what ends up happening when it's you that is getting stepped on is you tend to flood and you don't know what to do.
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:42):
That's
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:55:42):
Right.
Mel Robbins (00:55:43):
Yes.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (00:55:43):
That's right.
Mel Robbins (00:55:44):
Wow.
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:44):
Yeah. Respect is as important as affection.
Mel Robbins (00:55:48):
Respect is as important as infection.
Dr. John Gottman (00:55:51):
Yeah. Especially for women. I think today women need to feel that their partner values and respects them and as much as they respect anybody. So one of my New Year's resolutions was, let me try to treat Juli with the kind of respect that I treated my father with.
(00:56:18):
And I had to work on that and become self-aware of ways in which I was not communicating respect. For example, it takes her longer to get ready than it does me. So I would get in the car and wait for her. And while I was in the car, I was saying, "What the heck? Why does it take..." By the time she came out to the car, I had worked myself into a frenzy of anger about this thing. And instead I sat in the car and said, "There's a lot of really important stuff that she sees that I don't see at all. And she needs to get those things done before she feels ready to leave the house. So I think I'll just read my novel and whenever she comes out.
Mel Robbins (00:57:12):
This was an issue in our marriage too.
Dr. John Gottman (00:57:14):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (00:57:15):
Chris would be sitting in the pickup in the driveway running and I'm still putting my makeup on and then I'm running around the house looking for my keys because I forgot that he's driving. And when I would then get in the car, he would be really frustrated
(00:57:31):
And I'd get an earful about it. And now I try a little harder and he's usually listening to an audiobook when I get in the pickup truck that's been running for 11 minutes. I've shaved like four minutes off. He is the best ever. I love Marshalls. I mean, come on. Don't you love Marshalls? Of course you do. I am so excited that Marshalls is now a sponsor of the Mel Robbins podcast because at Marshalls you get the good stuff, brand names and styles that you love for way less. And isn't it so fun to walk into Marshalls and you're like, okay, I wonder what's in here and I bet there's some really good deals. It instantly puts you in a good mood. How do they do it? Well, the buyers at Marshalls, they are hustling behind the scenes twenty four seven to bring you really cool things and all the great deals.
(00:58:31):
That means you only have to worry about having fun, shopping everything from dresses to denim to shoes. Another reason why I love shopping at Marshalls, I can shop for the whole family and I'm so impressed by the designers and all the styles they stock. Marshalls, they get the deals, you get the good stuff. Shop now at marshalls.com or find a store near you.
Mel Robbins (00:58:54):
The third horseman of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness. What is defensiveness and why is it so automatic? It's just like you just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead?
Dr. John Gottman (00:59:14):
That lawyer that I talked about, he was amazing at not getting defensive when his wife was criticizing him. And he really was saying, she's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to help her. I have to help her get to it, but I'm sure she's got something she really wants to tell me that's important. And he had that attitude, very respectful. And I think that's the attitude you got to take. Instead of saying, I'm innocent, I have no responsibility in this. I'm pretty much perfect. If there's anybody defective, it's you. That's a really bad attitude because you're not going to listen if you have that attitude.
Mel Robbins (00:59:57):
I would love to hear you guys role play and If you could do an example where one of you wishes the other one would either lose weight or take a little better care of themselves or get a trainer or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them. And then the other ones, because I think this is something that is-
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:00:21):
Oh boy.
Mel Robbins (01:00:22):
Yes. That's
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:00:22):
A hot issue.
Mel Robbins (01:00:23):
Yeah, it's a hot issue.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:00:24):
Yeah. Okay.
Dr. John Gottman (01:00:26):
So let's say you criticize me for having a tummy end, but you're really worried about my
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:00:34):
Health. Tell me.
Dr. John Gottman (01:00:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:00:36):
Okay. Let's see. John, I need to talk to you about something. I know that you love sitting and reading your books, especially your mathematic books, which I cannot understand one page of. But honey, you really, really, really should go to the gym more often. You really should. You're only going to the gym once a month. That's not going to do anything for your body. I mean, your body's starting to get a little kind of flabby or something. I mean, just that belly is going out further and further.
Dr. John Gottman (01:01:27):
Well, I think I'm fine.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:01:32):
You think you're fine?
Dr. John Gottman (01:01:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:01:35):
Honey, the thing that I'm worried about, and this is true for both of us, is that we're both getting older. And you've read all the newspaper articles about being fit really adds years to your life. Being healthy, exercising is one of the best things you can do. I
Dr. John Gottman (01:01:58):
Just read this article about a guy who's a long distance runner and he had a heart attack while he was running and he was 40 years old. So I don't think exercise is such a great thing.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:02:09):
But honey, but- A
Dr. John Gottman (01:02:09):
Lot of these athletes are pretty stupid.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:02:12):
Oh, sweetie. What they found is that there was a heart defect there. It wasn't the running that caused it. It was the heart defect.
Dr. John Gottman (01:02:23):
You don't think he overdid it?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:02:24):
No, I don't think so. But if you don't exercise, I'm really afraid that you may suffer a heart attack, right?
Dr. John Gottman (01:02:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:02:36):
I mean, I don't want to lose you. I do not want to lose you. And so I'm wondering, how can I support you going to the gym more often or does that feel too controlling?
Dr. John Gottman (01:02:53):
No, I think what if we went together?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:02:56):
Love it. Would you be willing to make the time?
Dr. John Gottman (01:02:59):
Yeah, if I can swim.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:02):
Sure.
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:02):
I like to swim.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:03):
Swimming is great. Yeah. Swimming is wonderful. I haven't been
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:07):
In a long time.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:07):
You haven't?
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:08):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:09):
You want to do it again?
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:10):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:11):
Well, yay. All
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:12):
Right.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:13):
That would be terrific.
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:14):
Okay. Okay. I'll work on it.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:15):
Okay.
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:16):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:03:19):
How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're losing interest in them?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:25):
Oh, okay. That's a good one.
Mel Robbins (01:03:28):
Because I think the exercise thing is a big one.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:32):
Yeah, I know. I know.
Mel Robbins (01:03:35):
Really taking care of yourself. And yes, there's the, I'm afraid something that's going to happen, but it's also like, I actually am pulling away from you because I'm not proud to be with you or I am losing my attraction to you.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:50):
Okay.
Dr, Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:03:53):
I have something I want to talk to you about that is super sensitive.
Dr. John Gottman (01:03:59):
Uh-oh.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:04:00):
I know.
Dr. John Gottman (01:04:00):
Let me get my notebook.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:04:01):
You better get your notebook. And let me preface it. Let me preface it by saying I adore you. I love you so, so, so much.
Dr. John Gottman (01:04:13):
It's nice to hear.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:04:14):
Yeah. But
Dr. John Gottman (01:04:17):
It is a but.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:04:18):
Yep. Here comes the sensitive part. I don't know exactly what's happening, but as you've been gaining weight, becoming more of a sphere instead of a triangle. I don't know. My libido is going down. My sexual interest is declining.
Dr. John Gottman (01:04:48):
Oh, that sucks.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:04:50):
Well, it does because I love you and I really, really want to express that physically to you. But at the same time, I really, really loved it when you were working out and I could feel the muscles in your back, in your shoulders, your arms. It felt really wonderful.
Dr. John Gottman (01:05:15):
So I wrote down, lose weight and get more sex.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:05:20):
That's a possibility.
Dr. John Gottman (01:05:21):
All right. Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:05:22):
What do you think?
Dr. John Gottman (01:05:23):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:05:23):
Would you like that? Would you like to get more sex?
Dr. John Gottman (01:05:27):
I'd like more sex.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:05:28):
Because if about 20 pounds melted away, I bet you my sexual interest would go- Great idea.
Dr. John Gottman (01:05:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:05:42):
Okay. Ta, da.
Mel Robbins (01:05:47):
I'm sorry. I'm laughing, but you two are adorable and we have all been in a relationship like that.
Mel Robbins (01:05:54):
The fourth horseman that's going to destroy your relationship potentially is stonewalling. We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:06:04):
Okay.
Dr. John Gottman (01:06:06):
Well, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it and we brought men back in and said, "What was going through your mind right there?" And so we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through and they really were saying, "This is hopeless. I got to endure this. I got to get through this and don't say anything because whatever you say, you're going to make it worse. And I'm just going to go get a beer and watch the game and not think about this. Let me out of here." That's what they were thinking. And it was sad. It was really like I'm overwhelmed. I'm in a war zone and there aren't any shelters.
Mel Robbins (01:07:07):
Can you give us an example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship when the man or typically the guy, but often it can be the woman.
Dr. John Gottman (01:07:20):
Can be. Yeah. 15% of the time it was a woman
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:07:24):
Stonewalling. Right. Well, let's do you stonewalling.
Dr. John Gottman (01:07:29):
Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:07:29):
Yeah. Okay. So I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills. I mean, the bills have got to be paid. Why aren't you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table.
Dr. John Gottman (01:07:43):
This is not a big deal.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:07:45):
It is.
Dr. John Gottman (01:07:46):
I don't want to talk about this.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:07:47):
John, it's a huge deal. You're going to ruin our credit if you don't pay the bills. Would you please pay the bills? So what are you doing now? You're pretending I don't exist. You're just blocking me out. Honey, pay the frigging bills. What's the big deal?
Mel Robbins (01:08:14):
God. There. That's what it looked like. Because we've all seen it and experienced it. And if you were listening and not watching this episode as Julie was basically telling him what to do and criticizing him and then the huff at the end is contempt that exclamation point of you, John, crossed your arms and looked down and looked away and it is this act of like, there's nothing to do. I just need to endure this until she shuts up.
Dr. John Gottman (01:08:52):
Right.
Mel Robbins (01:08:53):
And that's the only option here.
Dr. John Gottman (01:08:55):
Yeah. And also if I say anything, it'll get worse. It's bad now, but if I say anything, I'll make it worse.
Mel Robbins (01:09:05):
How the heck do you repair something like that if you are the stonewaller and you've got somebody who's critical of you?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:09:13):
Okay.
Mel Robbins (01:09:15):
Can you teach a stonewaller to repair? Because a stonewheler does not trust that it's going to get better if I
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:09:22):
Say
Mel Robbins (01:09:22):
Anything.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:09:22):
Okay. Don't forget that what goes along with stonewalling is a heart rate over a hundred beats a minute.
Mel Robbins (01:09:31):
Oh,
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:09:31):
Because it's true. It looks like you're calm. Yes, it does. But because John and Bob had their couples hooked up to physiology that measured heart rates, we saw those heart rates through the ceiling, 140, 150 and
Dr. John Gottman (01:09:53):
So on. 10 seconds before they started stonewalling.
Mel Robbins (01:09:56):
I never ever, ever looked at stonewalling as somebody who's panicked and overwhelmed. I've always seen this as a power play
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:10:08):
That
Mel Robbins (01:10:09):
You're denying me attention and you are trying to just block me out as a way to control me.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:10:18):
Exactly. And that is wrong.
Dr. John Gottman (01:10:22):
Stonewalling is an attempt to self-soothe.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:10:25):
Right. Going inside. Okay. She can't touch me when I watch the game, so the game starts in 10 minutes. I'm going to go watch the game.
Dr. John Gottman (01:10:34):
I'll have a beer. I'll calm down.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:10:37):
Yeah. So let me tell you-
(01:10:41):
Yeah. Let me tell you what the antidote is. It's not saying something exactly. The only antidote is to do something to calm your physiology down. Okay. So we've seen the antidote. It is you tell your partner you need to take a break, that you're flooded, you need to take a break and you tell your partner when you will come back to continue the conversation. And typically the minimum a break takes is 20 to 30 minutes. The most would be 24 hours. What do you do during the break? You do not think about the fight because if you keep thinking about the fight and, "Oh, I should say this when I go back." You'll stay flooded because you're still hooked into the fight that is elevating your heart rate. You need to do something else like reading a book, reading a magazine, watching TV, playing with the puppy, even going for a run is fine, taking a walk, doing your email, something that takes your mind off the fight so that those stress hormones can metabolize out of your body, you see?
Dr. John Gottman (01:12:14):
It's especially hard for guys to do
Mel Robbins (01:12:16):
This. I would imagine.
Dr. John Gottman (01:12:17):
Because Bob Levinson did a study of startle, you have a blank gun go off behind somebody. Women feel fear. Men feel a desire to get even.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:12:36):
Get angry.
Dr. John Gottman (01:12:37):
Get angry, get even with the experiment. They feel rage about having been startled. And so that maintains the physiological arousal and it was probably adaptive in our ancestors time to stay physiologically aroused when you are hunting or protecting the tribe. But during a conversation with your lover, it's not helpful to stay physiologically aroused. It's counterproductive. Can't listen. So it's a challenge for men during the break to really distract themselves and do something entirely different.
Mel Robbins (01:13:18):
But the big breakthrough is to utter the words, "I am emotionally shut down or I'm emotionally flooded or- I'm flooded
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:13:29):
Right now. I'm flooded. I'm flooded."
Mel Robbins (01:13:31):
I'm flooded.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:13:32):
I need to take a break. And the good thing about saying, "I'll be back in 30 minutes," is that a lot of people when you say, "I'm going to go take a break," and they go, the other person feels rejected, thinks, "Oh, great. We're never going to get back to this topic. We're never going to solve this. We're never going to talk about it. " So saying, "Let's come back in a half an hour when I'm calmer and let's try again," makes a huge difference.
Mel Robbins (01:14:09):
It makes a lot of sense. Can we just move on? Why is that one of the biggest mistakes that you can make after a blowup?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:14:19):
Flooding, you mean? Oh, can we just move on?
Mel Robbins (01:14:20):
Just saying that. Can we just move on?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:14:22):
Oh.
Dr. John Gottman (01:14:23):
Let's not talk about this
Mel Robbins (01:14:24):
In a moment. Let's not talk about this.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:14:25):
Oh God, that's so terrible. Well, the problem in the relationship when you say, "Let's just not talk about this anymore." It's another way of saying whatever you're thinking isn't important, so let's just drop it. You're not important. What a message, right? It's a terrible message. So that's why. It's going to tell you don't do it.
Mel Robbins (01:14:53):
Yes. You're absolutely right.
Dr. John Gottman (01:14:57):
And then there's a loss of trust,
Mel Robbins (01:15:00):
Which
Dr. John Gottman (01:15:00):
Is really damaging to the relationship.
Dr. John Gottman (01:15:03):
I can't trust you to really keep your promises.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:15:07):
Or be there for me.
Mel Robbins (01:15:09):
Or
Dr. John Gottman (01:15:09):
Be there for me.
Mel Robbins (01:15:10):
Yeah.
Dr. John Gottman (01:15:10):
Yeah.
Mel Robbins (01:15:11):
Let's talk about turning toward each other.
Dr. John Gottman (01:15:13):
Oh,
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:15:14):
So important. So important.
Dr. John Gottman (01:15:17):
So that's something that one of my graduate students, Janice Driver, really noticed in the apartment la, there'd be these small moments when one person would try to get their partner's attention or interest or a conversation or show them something they were reading and the cameras turned to the other person and we recorded the response and they either responded or turned toward, we called it, or they didn't respond at all turning away or they responded irritably turning against. And what Jani discovered was that when you look back at the couples who divorced six years earlier, their average percent of turning toward their partner's bids for connection was 33% and the couples who were still married looked six years earlier, their average is 86% rather than 33%. So these small moments were really important. Plus you also discovered the secret to having a sense of humor during conflict was having a lot of history of turning toward, building an emotional bank account of connecting.
(01:16:31):
Then people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict.
Mel Robbins (01:16:35):
I want to make sure that as you were listening to John say that, that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those micro moments. And obviously what we want to learn to do is turn toward one another. But the thing that a lot of people do is you either turn away or you turn against. And I think it's a very useful tool to ask yourself, am I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day? Am I turning away from them?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:17:11):
So what turning away means, a lot of people misinterpret that. They think it means, oh, you turn your body away. No, it doesn't at all. It means you completely ignore what they've said, you ignore it. So let's say I'm reading a book and John calls to me from the kitchen, "Julie, I ignore him. I keep reading the book." He says again, "Honey, do you know where the big fork is? " I ignore him as if he never said anything. That's turning away. Turning against would be, "Would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read." That's the hostility you see that comes in turning against.
Dr. John Gottman (01:18:07):
Wow. They're really small moments, but the probability that a person will rebid after their partner's turned away is 22%. Wow. So only 22% of the time do they say, "Honey, where's the fork?" Or, "Listen to this. " They kind of crumple a little bit when their partner turns away.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:18:32):
Well, of course.
Dr. John Gottman (01:18:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:18:34):
You know what it reminds me of? You know what a sea anemone looks like? It's this little circle of a being in the water in the ocean that has little tiny fingers. And when it's relaxed, all those fingers are spread out towards the center of this little circle.
Mel Robbins (01:18:54):
Yeah. Like if you saw the movie Finding Nemo, all
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:18:57):
The baby hairs are Q1.
Mel Robbins (01:18:59):
Yes.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:18:59):
Yeah, exactly. Okay. So if you poke that sea anemone gently, all those fingers pull back and then very slowly it'll start stretching, stretching, stretching, stretching again. Let's say you poke again, that seaonemony is not going to stretch out its fingers. It's going to hide. That's what happens.
Dr. John Gottman (01:19:28):
Good image.
Mel Robbins (01:19:29):
That makes a ton of sense. And I would just love to have you speak directly to the person who's been with us this whole time because there's a lot that you have shared. There are so many tools and frameworks, things that you can put to use right now and also things that you can really reflect on in yourself because you can't change them. You can use these tools to connect more deeply and to strengthen your relationship, but ultimately you can't change them. But a lot of what has happened for me with your work is it's made me understand the things that I'm doing that I need to change that can strengthen the relationship and the things that I can proactively do differently that build better connection. And so I'd love to have you just speak to the person directly and if they take everything to heart but they want to do one thing right after they finish listening, what's the most important action to take today?
Dr. John Gottman (01:20:37):
Well, I would say that when you realize conflict has a goal, which is mutual understanding and what you need to do is postpone persuasion and problem solving until you can really hear what your partner is saying, what your partner feels, what your partner needs, what your partner's hopes are and get that notebook out, slowly open it up, slowly get your pen out and take notes and listen. Because when you do that, you realize your partner's not your adversary, your partner is your ally at solving a problem together. You can be a team that together is more powerful in either person individually and you solve that problem together. So buy a little notebook and a pen and take notes, slowly get out your pen so you can wait at least two beats before you respond.
Mel Robbins (01:21:43):
Well, I cannot wait to listen to this again with my husband, Chris. Maybe it's what we'll do to celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary and I now know what I'm going to get them. I'm going to get them a little notebook, right?
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:21:56):
Right. That's a great idea.
Mel Robbins (01:21:58):
And a pen.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:21:59):
And a pen
Mel Robbins (01:22:00):
And a pen. And one of the other things that I really loved about being with you two is that you reminded me of one of my favorite pieces of advice and truths about relationships that really go the distance and are satisfying for both people. I first heard this from James Sexton, but it's just this idea that you're my favorite person and being in the presence of the two of you and experiencing in person your warmth towards each other, your fondness towards each other, your kindness towards one another, the fun that you have as you are sitting together, it is the little things that are available and right in front of us. And I am so excited to get home to Chris tonight in Southern Vermont because I feel rejuvenated in terms of just that energy between you two, the warmth.
Dr. John Gottman (01:23:06):
Helen Fisher taught us that being in love has no shelf life. You can be a love for 35 years, 40 years, 50 years, and we are. And I feel enormous joy in the morning when Julie's in my arms every morning.
Mel Robbins (01:23:29):
You are going to make me cry. The Gottmans, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mil. Thank you. Thank
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:23:35):
You, Mil.
Mel Robbins (01:23:36):
I just love you too.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:23:38):
Thank you.
Mel Robbins (01:23:38):
Thank
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman (01:23:39):
You.
Mel Robbins (01:23:40):
And thank you. I told you at the beginning of this episode you would fall in love with the Gottmans and didn't you? I mean, how could you not? I am so excited for everything that's going to happen in your relationships and in your life based on what you just learned, because the truth is you deserve love, you deserve connection, you deserve respect and kindness. And now you have research back tools from the world renowned Gottmans to use and to share for the rest of your life. How cool is that? And in case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the thing that's going to make your life better is stronger and more loving relationships.
(01:24:25):
And now you have everything you need to know, do, and say to create them. So go do it. Alrighty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. Alrighty. Thank you for watching all the way to the end here on YouTube. The next video that you want to check out, you're going to love this one too, is this one.
Key takeaways
When conflict starts, slow down, grab a notebook, and listen before reacting, because your partner is not the enemy and mutual understanding is the real goal.
When you say, “I feel hurt” instead of “You always,” you replace blame with vulnerability, making it easier for your partner to respond with care and curiosity.
If you never argue, do not assume everything is fine; avoiding conflict can quietly create distance, loneliness, and a life that feels more like roommates than partners.
The moment you feel emotionally flooded, stop trying to solve anything, take a break, calm your body, and return later so your heart can listen again.
Every small bid for attention matters; when you consistently turn toward your partner instead of ignoring them, you build trust, connection, and lasting friendship.
Guests Appearing in this Episode
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman
Drs. John and Julie Gottman are world-renowned relationship researchers with 50+ years studying love, conflict, and what makes couples last.
-
Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection
How we fight predicts the future of our relationships. Most of us blunder into conflict without knowing what we are really fighting about and then quickly become overwhelmed by physiological responses we can’t control and emotions we don’t anticipate. The truth is the happiest and most successful couples fight—all the time. Conflict is human, and necessary.
Through decades of research, Drs. John and Julie Gottman, founders of the world-famous Love Lab, have identified the five common mistakes we make when we are at odds. In Fight Right, we learn the five secrets that help us to get back on track and harness conflict to build stronger, healthier relationships. With kindness, clarity, and a deep understanding of the struggles couples are going through, the Gottmans show us that we each have a unique conflict culture, borne of how we were raised and how we experienced past relationships, and they take us through all the possible combinations, from Avoiders, to Validators, to Volatiles, and how they can best work together.
Fight Right is an essential resource that will help couples escape the win-or-lose mentality in favor of a collaborative approach: calming down, staying connected, and really understanding, so that our fights can bring us closer.
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Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love
Strengthen and deepen your love with a fun, ingenious program of eight life-changing conversations—on essential topics such as money, sex, and trust—from two of the world’s leading marriage researchers and clinicians. Navigating the challenges of long-term commitment takes effort—and it just got simpler, with this empowering, step-by-step guide to communicating about the things that matter most to you and your partner. Drawing on forty years of research from their world-famous Love Lab, Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman invite couples on eight fun, easy, and profoundly rewarding dates, each one focused on a make-or-break issue: trust, conflict, sex, money, family, adventure, spirituality, and dreams. Interactive activities and prompts provide motivation to stay open, stay curious, and, most of all, stay talking to each other. And the range—from the four skills you need for intimate conversation (including Put Into Words What You Are Feeling) to tips on being honest about your needs, while also validating your partner’s own emotions—will resonate, whether you’re newly together or a longtime couple looking to fortify your bond. You will discover (or rediscover) your partner like never before—and be able to realize your hopes and dreams for the love you desire and deserve.
Resources
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- The Gottman Institute: Research
- The Gottman Institute: The Four Horsemen: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling
- The Gottman Institute: Managing Conflict: Solvable vs. Perpetual Problems
- The Gottman Institute: The 6 Things That Predict Divorce
- The Gottman Institute: The Sound Relationship House: Turn Towards Instead of Away
- Current Issues in Personality Psychology: Mindfulness, relationship quality, and conflict resolution strategies used by partners in close relationships
- The Washington Post: How to stay happy in a relationship, according to long-married couples
- Journal of Personality and Social Psychology: To Have and to Hold: Gratitude Promotes Relationship Maintenance in Intimate Bonds
- Emotion: Can I Tell You How I Feel? Perceived Partner Responsiveness Encourages Emotional Expression
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